Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Bird351 on April 12, 2005, 10:18:09 PM
Title: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 12, 2005, 10:18:09 PM
Well, it seems my thread in user rides has died off, so I guess I'll copy the relevant parts of that into a thread in here and try to figure out what's wrong with this thing.
This is its general behavior:
Quote
The more times I try to start it, and get it to run for a few seconds at a time, the more it wants to stay running.. but by the time it starts getting easy to keep it going, the battery is dead and I have to give up. Last time before the battery ped out, it started hard, ran smooth, sputtered, recovered and ran smooth again, sputtered/recovered one more time, and ped out after about a minute total.
This is the result of an experiment I tried:
Quote
Just for the hell of it, I disconnected the IAC, (TPS is already disconnected/bad) stepped on the gas just a tiny bit, and tried to start it. Had no problem running it at over 1000 RPM for several minutes. Reconnected the IAC, pushed the pedal in again just a little bit, and tried to start it again.. did nothing but chug along barely running.
This is a summary of things that might be relevant to the issue: (edited from the original thread where needed)
Quote
- TPS is bad. Read 5v when I tested it. When I ran it this time, I disconnected the TPS on Shawn's advice for this latest round of tests. - Gas is old. 2 gallons of it were in the car for well over a year. The other ~20 gallons are 92 octane (hoped the extra detergent might help a little) and were put in around the last week of October, along with two small bottles of gas treatment. The stabilizer was added somewhere around December or January, when I had to put some in the tank of our generator. However, many of you are of the opinion that this should be a non-issue. - We pulled one plug soon after I got the car here, and it was not fouled or damaged in any way. - Y-pipe precats are cleaned out, and are back on the car. - Smog system has been removed between the pump and that tube that connects to both heads. The tube is in place with the check valve on the end of it. I can plug it if need be. (also have a couple junk spark plugs I can stick in the holes if needed) - Looks to have new, but cheap, wires on it. Dist. cap and rotor are moderately worn. Fine-sanded the rotor contacts last night. - Has one known set of bad rings.. I believe he said some mechanics told him #2's rings were shot. It blew a LOT of oil up into the throttle body via that hose connected to the oil filler tube, when I first got it and tried to run it. This time around, I'm not seeing any oil being blown out. - Has new vacuum lines connected to most of the intake manifold, based on the picture floating around here from when I asked what goes where. I've done a reasonable amount of tracing of the lines, and saw no obvious problems with my reassembly of the system. - New fuel filter. - New PCV valve. - Already reset the switch in the trunk.
The main question is, *should* this all clear up when I replace the TPS, or might I be looking at more serious problems?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 13, 2005, 05:08:42 AM
Its gonna be impossible for the EEC to learn how to "idle" the engine with a bad TPS. Were the voltage readings taken from the green and black wires???
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 09:48:53 AM
To the best of my knowledge, yes. It's been a few months since I took the reading.
I should be picking up a new TPS today.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 12:38:27 PM
Got the TPS, installed it.. car mostly behaves the same, except I can keep it running with my foot on the gas. I'll have to adjust the TPS now (I just slapped it on there to try it) and check codes again.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 01:46:20 PM
Alright.. had another dead battery issue, which is now solved.
TPS is adjusted to .95 or .956 or something like that.
Started the car.. it will not keep idling on its own.. it'll out after maybe 10 seconds.
If I disconnect the IAC and try to run it, it will just out after 2-5 seconds every time.
If I hold my foot on the gas and tweak it constantly, I can get the car to maintain about 1400 RPM.. but it'll maintain that for 10-20 seconds, start to chug, then flare up and level off again. If I let off the gas, it'll drop to 600-800 RPM for 10 seconds or so, then die quietly. I had it running long enough to get it to three bars on the temperature gauge, (full digital) but I decided to let it charge up a bit more before I messed with it again.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 01:53:04 PM
Disconnect your EGR and see what happens
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 01:54:37 PM
Pull the EGR off the spacer or the lines off the EGR valve?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 01:55:14 PM
pull the lines....
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 02:06:14 PM
Pulled the electrical connection to the EGR valve, it runs mostly the same. It'll hold idle for a little while longer if I let my foot off of it, but it still dies.
On a brighter note, I was able to run it long enough to move it out of its parking spot for the first time since November.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 02:56:28 PM
OK.. with EGR still disconnected, I got it to run.. even drove it around the yard briefly. Got it back near its spot, and held the revs up for a little while. (2-3k) When I let off, it idled. The idle is a little rough at times.. like one cylinder not firing on occasion.. but it'll stay idling once it's warm.
If I try to rev it, it'll bog down but then rev up to 2-4k without any other problems.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 04:10:51 PM
I'd say your EGR seems to have something to do with it, but there is something else still wrong besides that.
Quote
Has new vacuum lines connected to most of the intake manifold, based on the picture floating around here from when I asked what goes where. I've done a reasonable amount of tracing of the lines, and saw no obvious problems with my reassembly of the system.
Do you know which lines are still off? Maybe one of those missing ones?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 04:15:26 PM
Well, I made one modification to be able to keep EGR vacuum and lose the vac lines to the smog pump's valves.. there was one line that splits into two, the top line goes to EGR and the bottom goes to the smog pump . I cut the splitter in such a way that I could run a line from the original single line right to the EGR line, but if I ever needed to connect things back up again, I could do it with just two little pieces of my blue vacuum line.
I never did account for the line that ran into the body at the very back corner of the passenger side of the engine bay, but it was connected to one of the smog pump solenoids.
If I patch that line back to the way it was, I'd still have the smog pump vacuum lines open.. there's nothing left to attach them to.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 08:47:54 PM
Aight, it runs.. and it'll idle steady around 800 RPM now, but only if I disconnect the IAC. If I don't, she'll crank and crank and crank and TRY to start but will never quite catch and run.
I sorta cheated on adjusting idle and the TPS. Since I knew before my last TPS adjustment that idle was a little on the high side, (it was regularly fluctuating between what I am guessing is the 800 RPM bar and the 1000 RPM bar on the digital tach) I got the TPS voltage as low as I could possibly get it (like 1.020v) and then made up the difference by turning the idle screw back down until it hit .98v exactly. (maybe less than one full turn to the left)
I'm not going to mess with it any more tonight. That battery is taking a beating.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 11:07:19 PM
cool, guess you found your issue. As far as your battery is it still goin south on you after letting it sit for a while?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 11:22:45 PM
So the issue is now the IAC? I can only get it to run close to normal when the IAC is disconnected.
I also can't rev it freely.. if I push on the pedal quickly, it bogs a few times.. if I want to rev it, I have to do it carefully, working the pedal quite a bit. But it will eventually rev, even up to 5k+.
The battery doesn't go south on me from sitting, it goes south on me from cranking it over so much. It often takes 5-10 seconds to start the car, longer if I even turn the parking lights on. (which I need to do to illuminate the dash properly.. separate issue) I have it on 2A charge overnight, and I'll juice it tomorrow with 6A while I'm out there.
This stuff may or may not be related, but I know I need to get a new negative terminal put on that wire. The current one is mangled. I also need to get another coil on it. The coil on it now is the one from the '86, because I put the "new" coil I bought on the '86 when I did a tune-up. It was originally meant for the '88 but I knew the '88 would be sitting awhile. Anyway, the coil's contact for the coil wire is somewhat eroded from its time in the '86.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 11:44:51 PM
Well, The EGR is an issue and it seems the IAC may have been one as well. Is it idling smooth or chugging?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 11:51:00 PM
Idles fine with EGR connected and IAC disconnected.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 11:59:27 PM
hmmm and it bogs when you stomp on it.......I'm gonna sleep on this one. Watch, I'll wake up at like 3:30 shouting "Eureka!" :p
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 01:52:54 PM
If I did something like that, the woman would probably tell me to shut up and go back to sleep. :p
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 14, 2005, 03:21:26 PM
It could have a bad temp (ECT)sensor, MAP sensor, maybe dirty injectors or weak fuel pressure. Possibly the iginition timing is off(retarded).
At this point you really need to scan it for codes.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 03:37:46 PM
I get no codes (well, I get 11s) if everything is plugged in.. but it doesn't want to run if the IAC is plugged in. Runs if EGR is plugged in.
Once it's warmed up, (3-4 bars on the digital temp gauge) it runs a little bit more normal. Idles a little high at 1000 RPM, but it doesn't seem to like idling any lower than that. (gets rough) When it's cold, I have to really work the pedal and rev it a lot to keep it going.. but once it's warm, I don't. Also, when it's cold, any time I step on the gas at all, it bogs. When it's warm, I can gently depress the pedal and it'll rev right up.. but a sharp stab at the pedal will still bog it when warm.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 14, 2005, 03:40:54 PM
Hmmm timing seems like a good place to start....It's Free! ( If you got a timing light that is)......
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 14, 2005, 03:43:40 PM
OK Since it doesn't have any error codes, the problem is likely timing, fuel pressure, or dirty injectors.
Maybe could be bad gas... Bet you haven't thought of that one :D
But if it smells Ok I doubt it is the problem...
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 03:48:50 PM
I'll have to ask a friend if he has a timing light. Replacing the TPS ate up what little money I had for the car this week.
His initial thoughts on the car's problems a few days ago were "distributor or computer", so you'll probably make his day if you're right on the timing.
Nothing I can do in the fuel pressure department. Have nothing to check it with.
Dirty injectors I could believe, with the old gas situation and all. (I mean the stuff that was still in it before I filled it in November)
EDIT: Well, I've burned 3 gallons away so far.. 19 to go, if it is bad gas. Oh yeah.. it does tend to stink quite a bit more after running this car vs. running the '86.
Another edit: I do have a few bucks to spare, still.. (for the moment) should I buy a bottle of anything in particular to put in the tank?
Current contents of the gas, from when the tank was full: (it's now 3 gallons off full)
2 gallons of gas that's well over a year old. ~20 gallons of 92 octane, added last week of October/first week of November. 2 bottles of STP Gas Treatment. (I think that's what I used) Added the day the car was last filled. 1 bottle of fuel stabilizer, added sometime around late December to January.
Fuel filter was changed just before the (approx.) 20 gallons were added.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 14, 2005, 04:33:06 PM
I'm still doubting the gas is the problem, but since it has already had a bunch of additives, I'd drain the tank and try some fresh. You can use the pump in the tank.. Just ground the tan/green wire on the end of the EEC test plug and the pump will run continually with the IGN switch on. You can then remove the schrader valve core, and using a 1/4" hose pump the gas into the other vehicles you have. Even if the gas is stale 5 or so gallons should not cause any problems.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 05:55:08 PM
it, just filled the '86 the other day.. and I think my mother's car is full as well.
Oh well, I have like 15 gallons worth of gas cans.. and maybe I can puppies a few gallons off on a friend.. see if he's willing to use it.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 08:00:14 PM
We're going to hold off on draining the gas for now. That friend of mine is going to come over tomorrow after work and attempt to change timing by hand and ear. He's done it several times before, and apparently done very well with it, so hopefully that'll help. We don't have a timing light available, and we've never used one anyway.
I think I'm gonna run out and pick up a new negative battery terminal.. the more I look at it, the more it bugs me that it's all mangled. Besides.. poking around in the Haynes manual troubleshooting section, stuff like bad ground kept coming up.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 15, 2005, 06:51:24 PM
Hahahahahaha, my luck f'n blows.
Friend came over today to set the timing by hand/ear.. got his wrench on the bolt holding in the distributor, and proceeded to break the TFI module clean in half when it slipped.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: MasterBlaster on April 16, 2005, 08:41:07 AM
Think positive... maybe the TFI was the problem.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 16, 2005, 08:53:25 AM
I did think about that briefly yesterday, while staring at the broken-off piece of it. It was quite brittle.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 16, 2005, 06:10:52 PM
Got the TFI replaced. He tried to change timing, but the thing won't stay idling for long, now.. and it's running rich.. LOADS of gasoline smell.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 16, 2005, 08:38:58 PM
Should I look into possibly picking up another EEC for this?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: siscrew on April 16, 2005, 11:16:40 PM
Hi, I seem to be having a similar problem with my '85 T-Bird with a rebuilt V8 302 engine with headers, crane cam, the bearings are all new (10 over on crank), new hyp. pistons (9 to 1), (30 over on cyl walls), oil pump, heads had to be shaved a bit as right head was slightly warped, new valve job, with new rod guides and hyd. lifters. It's got the CFI on it, and it will start and I can keep it running if I keep throttling the gas, but will not go to an idle no matter how warm the engine gets ! I replaced the ACT sensor on the engine, as it was showing 2.7 volts with a cold engine, while the coolant sensor was showing 3.2, but to no effect. If I disconnect the ACT sensor, the engine will start and run at around 3000 rpm, with the occasional backfire before I shut it off. The way I have it running right now is with the ACT disconnected and the idle screw turned down to where it's idling at around 1200, but it's really rough running. So I don't know if it may be the same problem as you have , but I sure am hoping that if you find out what's wrong with yours I'll be able to cure mine !!
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 17, 2005, 05:18:56 PM
Aight, update time.
Got a new TFI on it yesterday. Picked up a new cap/rotor and a coil today. Also gapped all the plugs, the gaps were all a little on the small side. Each plug has a small burn mark on the insulator, in a crescent shape.
Yesterday, it would idle (~1000 RPM) when warm, but would cut out after a couple minutes. Today, it idles (~800 RPM) when warm and does not die.
It only runs when the IAC is disconnected. (regardless of TPS voltage.. set voltage right, it still won't run.. won't even start with the IAC plugged in)
I get no codes either with or without the IAC plugged in. All 11s.
It still won't hold an idle when cold, and it's hard to rev it quickly. Stabbing the pedal makes it bog, but if you push the pedal smoothly when warm, it'll rev. However, with the new cap/rotor/coil/regap, when it does start it starts much easier.
My friend is asking me if I could get another EEC on Ebay or something. Does anyone else think that the EEC might be messed up?
The other option: Replace the IAC? It's over $50 at AutoHole.. not sure how much to snag one at a junkyard.
EDIT: Detail I may have left out.. it's apparently running VERY rich.. like exhaust-makes-your-eyes-burn rich.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 17, 2005, 08:42:36 PM
Stalling with the IAC connected would indicate it is being pulled shut by voltage. I looked at my '88 EVTM and rather than a EEC prob, I suspect you may have a wiring harness prob... Measure from the red wire on the IAC to the black wire on the TPS to see if it has 12v... While your at it measure voltage on both connections on the IAC, with and without it connected(again to the black on TPS). No need to start the engine ....
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 17, 2005, 08:58:25 PM
Key on, engine off for all tests:
12v to both lines with the IAC connected.
12v to red line only with the IAC disconnected.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 17, 2005, 09:14:51 PM
Other notes on the car:
- Shawn had me chasin' after the FPR as a possible problem, earlier.. but I see no evidence of gas in the vacuum line, for a possible rupture of the diaphragm. - No obvious vacuum leaks. I'd also say half the vacuum lines have been replaced by now, with the blue stuff. - Has new battery terminals, and the battery is pretty close to fully charged. - It's definitely blowing oil into the throttle body again. I'm considering ways to stop that.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 17, 2005, 10:49:24 PM
Those voltage readings would be correct... I'll take a voltage check on my blue '88 and see how the readings are with it running(hafta be tomrrow evening) and get back to you....
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 17, 2005, 10:53:22 PM
Quote from: Bird351
Key on, engine off for all tests:
12v to both lines with the IAC connected.
12v to red line only with the IAC disconnected.
That 12 volts on both lines, is that with the engine running?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 17, 2005, 10:53:42 PM
OK, thanks.
This engine is succeeding in making me feel like a complete retard.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 17, 2005, 10:54:13 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
That 12 volts on both lines, is that with the engine running?
KOEO.. same as if I were pulling codes.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: MasterBlaster on April 18, 2005, 05:57:36 AM
Quote
- Shawn had me chasin' after the FPR as a possible problem, earlier.. but I see no evidence of gas in the vacuum line, for a possible rupture of the diaphragm.
Is there actual vacuum at the end of the line (while running)? Does the engine really puke if it's pulled (while running)?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 18, 2005, 09:54:03 AM
I'll have to check that out after I have my coffee.
Anything else I should be looking for in today's round of mental abuse, I mean troubleshooting? :p
I guess the car is running well enough to drive me nuts.. even if it is a short drive. :p
Anyway, I also need to work on finding a replacement for that little metal washer/grommet/whatever that helps hold the TV cable onto the throttle assembly. I have the clip that goes on top of it, but the other piece dropped down past the exhaust. I checked on the ground when I moved the car forward under its own power.. it's either buried in the river rock I park on, or it's stuck on some part of the body. I know I really shouldn't even try to drive it until that's attached properly. (my "drive" around the yard was little more than letting it move forward at just above idle)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 18, 2005, 03:47:54 PM
OK, I warmed it up again today and got it to where it would idle again, (IAC still disconnected, only way it will run) and yanked the new vacuum line off the FPR. It lost a little RPM but did not die. It was definitely getting vacuum, because I could hear it pulling air when I pulled the line off.. and putting my thumb over the end of the line made the RPM kick back up to normal again.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 18, 2005, 08:17:18 PM
OK got some readings engine running... The red wire on the IAC should still have 12-14v, the white/blue had 7.5v on cold start up(varies as it controlls the idle speed), and gradually increased to around 10v as speed dropped. Holding RPMs at approx 2000, the voltage drops to 6.5-7v.
With the IAC disconnected, KOEO still gives code 11. KOER it gives codes 12,13(can't controll idle)& 16(unable to perform HEGO test).
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 18, 2005, 09:45:24 PM
Don't know that I can get all of those readings. It just won't start with the IAC connected.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 18, 2005, 10:26:45 PM
Quote from: Bird351
Don't know that I can get all of those readings. It just won't start with the IAC connected.
Start it up and then plug it in...
Wonder if there is a chance the contacts in the plug are reversed??? Something has to be pulling the IAC closed, and since it is fed 12v on the red wire and lowering the voltage on the white/blue increases speed..... it just don't make sense....
UNLESS... Possibly you don't have a IAC or EEC problem at all, maybe its weak fuel pressure and its just so lean any extra air causes it to stall... That would also explain the problem with getting it to rev... There is a test to see how much fuel it can pump in a given time(doesn't require a fuel pressure gage). I'll do a little more diggin'.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 18, 2005, 10:32:52 PM
Should I just pick up a new FPR and try it? I think AutoHole listed $18 for one. I've heard they're a bitch to replace, tho.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 18, 2005, 10:37:38 PM
Never seen a F/P reg cause weak fuel pressure(although its possible), they usually cause high pres.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 18, 2005, 10:40:15 PM
OK, I'll keep looking for wrong trees to bark up, then. :p
This thing is making me feel like a royal idiot.. but hey, at least I haven't thrown a "I hate Fords" fit over it.. heh.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 19, 2005, 08:14:40 AM
Quote
Never seen a F/P reg cause weak fuel pressure
Doesn't that happen if the diaphram inside the regulator brakes? A buddy of Mine has an 82 Malibu with a 383 TPI setup and we just found out that the diaphram had ruptured on the regulator and he was getting way too much gas at idle. It was still getting up and going when you stood on it, but it idled like .
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 19, 2005, 12:39:20 PM
But when you stood on it, was it a sharp spike of the pedal or slow smooth rev-up?
If I stab the pedal this one will bog hard.. but if I push it in smooth it'll rev to 5k+. (when warm.. if cold, it just bogs a lot no matter what you do)
I did say I didn't see any gas in the vacuum line to the FPR.. but it could be that I just missed it. I don't know.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 19, 2005, 05:34:33 PM
Aight, so what do I check next? Sorry if I sound a bit impatient.. (I'm a little anxious, if anything) but I was hoping that turning a few wrenches on the '88 would help take my mind off this LSC.
Is it possible that I've put in too many additives to the gas? If this is to be believed:
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article99.html
..then I went overboard. 2 bottles of STP Gas Treatment, plus that bottle of fuel stabilizer.
I can se together a few more bucks for a FPR if that were indeed the culprit.. but I can't afford to keep throwing parts at it wildly, hoping it will eventually work right.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 19, 2005, 10:56:41 PM
Oddly enough, now that I have this LSC parked out front, I need this Bird running somewhat urgently. Since this is not my house, I am now starting to get the "yard as a parking lot" , and all cars need to be functional. I can justify having two Birds and an LSC because between those and the ZX2, everyone in the house would have a car available to them if needed.. but only if they're all running.
Initially when I got the LSC I was told I needed to have the '88 gone in 2 weeks.. but I have since made my line of reasoning clear, and the '88 has now been tentatively labelled "my fiance's car". Well, da woman need a runnin' car. :D
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: 87 3.8 CAT on April 20, 2005, 12:28:07 AM
When it's cold, I have to really work the pedal and rev it a lot to keep it going.. but once it's warm, I don't. Also, when it's cold, any time I step on the gas at all, it bogs.
This was exactly the same problem I had with my 3.8, and a new IAC straightened it right up. You may have already taken care of this issue, but thought I'd make you feel a bit more confident about it if you have (had) any doubts.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 12:29:06 AM
Well, the IAC is under suspicion, still.. by me, at least.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: 87 3.8 CAT on April 20, 2005, 12:51:33 AM
I am new with these cars all together, and am learning a lot from the guys / gals here, and certainly don't want to send anyone in the wrong direction, but the difference was night and day when I changed the IAC. Another side note, the only code I was getting was for the EGR valve / sensor, but a new EGR valve and sensor did not take care of the problem. I don't have any clue how to test the voltage for any of these, so I was kicking around in the dark and throwing money at it.
I changed EGR valve and sensor, wires, plugs, cap, rotor, and noticed a slight difference with each item, but IAC was the key to it all.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: thundergrowl on April 20, 2005, 08:06:10 AM
Bird351: Maybe you've already addressed this but I'm too lazy to read all of your posts. :sorry:
This 88, was is sitting for a loooong time before you bought it? Might your problems be something simple like an extremely clogged fuel filter or, God forbid, a clogged sock on the fuel pump? Both are relatively cheap fixes but the second would mean dropping the tank.
Also have you checked the dizzy cap? Sometimes they will look fine but they will pit under the contacts for the rotor button causing really poor spark.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: MasterBlaster on April 20, 2005, 08:53:31 AM
Quote
I can se together a few more bucks for a FPR if that were indeed the culprit
Of course, hooking up a pressure gauge to the test fitting on the fuel rail would tell you that right quick. I have one on the shelf about 3 feet from me, but you're not exactly local. ;) Any parts stores nearby with a loan-a-tool program?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 10:06:52 AM
Quote from: thundergrowl
Bird351: Maybe you've already addressed this but I'm too lazy to read all of your posts. :sorry:
This 88, was is sitting for a loooong time before you bought it? Might your problems be something simple like an extremely clogged fuel filter or, God forbid, a clogged sock on the fuel pump? Both are relatively cheap fixes but the second would mean dropping the tank.
Also have you checked the dizzy cap? Sometimes they will look fine but they will pit under the contacts for the rotor button causing really poor spark.
It did sit.. but I replaced the fuel filter in October when I was trying to get the car back here. Don't know about the sock on the fuel pump.. but from what I've been told, it would be difficult to rev the engine if the sock were clogged up. I am able to get the engine to rev over 5k, I just have to be slow with the pedal on getting there.
I replaced the cap and rotor a couple days ago, along with putting on a new coil and re-gapping all the plugs.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: MasterBlaster
Of course, hooking up a pressure gauge to the test fitting on the fuel rail would tell you that right quick. I have one on the shelf about 3 feet from me, but you're not exactly local. ;) Any parts stores nearby with a loan-a-tool program?
We have AutoHole, Advance/Discount, NAPA, and I don't know who else, if anyone. I mainly go to AutoHole because the rest are a couple miles further down the road. (except after the hurricane, when AutoHole literally had a hole in the front of the building about the size of driving two freight trains through the front door)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 12:41:20 PM
Alright.. I decided to borrow the IAC from the LSC and hook it up.
The car will start with the replacement IAC connected.. but it's very difficult. Sometimes takes 10+ seconds of cranking. (it did that before with the other IAC, it could be that I just didn't push it hard enough to try to start it.. I have battery issues with this thing, so I don't like to risk running it down again) It acts just the same as before, needing to be revved a lot after first startup.. but now it will idle for a few moments when cold and then stall when the temp. gauge is reading only maybe 2 bars. (before it needed to get to 3-4 bars before it would idle at all)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 20, 2005, 12:59:02 PM
Dude, I think your fuel pump is dying. Look at the symptoms: - Long starting times - Erratic idle - Fluctuating RPM's - Pushing the pedal to keep it running/idling
Those are classic indications that the fuel pump is on its way out; that's what my gut says. I've been following this thread for awhile and chose not to introduce anything until my suspicions were confirmed. The long cranking time sealed the deal for me. You absolutely need to get your fuel pressure checked.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 01:02:37 PM
And here I thought you were just reading it to make sure I wasn't g anyone off. :p
Alright.. but , $75 for a new pump plus $9 for the strainer, according to AutoHole.. this may have to wait until I'm done paying for the LSC.
I'll see what I can figure out as far as getting a pressure gauge onto it for testing.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 20, 2005, 01:10:45 PM
Quote from: Bird351
And here I thought you were just reading it to make sure I wasn't g anyone off. :p
Actually you've been behaving quite well. ;) Whenever there's a tech issue posted and it goes for more than 2 pages, there's a fairly serious problem somewhere. Your feedback and observations have been impeccable. Wish everyone was so observant...troubleshooting would be a hell of a lot easier then.
Anyhow, it's unwritten law around here to never, ever, EVER recommend parts store fuel pumps unless you love dropping your tank every few months/year to change out the pump again. They're just plain teh suck. For the same amount of money you can get a much better aftermarket pump (Walbro, BBK, etc) and not have to worry about it again.
First things first though...don't worry about the pump until you can confirm that your pressure is low. Priority one is getting the fuel pressure checked.
One more question: does the pump sound fairly loud or noisy? Sometimes they get louder as they die, sometimes they don't. Just another thing that could confirm that it is the pump.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 01:20:07 PM
Ya know, I don't think I've ever actually heard the fuel pump. The pump on my '86 (the CFI car) is more noticeable.
When you have far more money than time, you have no excuse NOT to be observant about the car. Like I was just telling Shawn.. if I had gone ahead and replaced the IAC with a new one, I'd be set back $50 and still needing a fuel pump. But, I found a way to test it for "free", (if you can call $800 for another car "free".. but it's a f'n Mark! heh) and gave whatever updated observations I could. I don't feel bad about replacing the coil, cap/rotor, and battery terminal. Between the cap/rotor, coil, and re-gapping the plugs, it did make a noticeable improvement.. and the old negative terminal was just falling apart anyway. Don't feel bad on the TPS either.. the old one was reading 5v across the green and black wires. The replacement TFI had nothing to do with me.. my friend broke it, and he was good enough to replace it at his expense. He even went and picked up a deep-socket 7/32" to help get it off there.
(I ended up getting not only a new TFI, but a new Craftsman 1/4" drive ratchet out of it, because he was going to give me an extra one from his stock.. but then found a broken one he could take in and exchange, and I got the new one.. , this HAS been a good week! hah)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 20, 2005, 01:26:37 PM
K, I have a lot of friends who own Mustangs, most of them hatchbacks, and they can always hear their fuel pump running. I'm used to that. Our cars have an actual trunk, insulation, trunk liners, etc. because they were just a teeny tiny more upscale. :) So to hear the pump run on a T-Bird/Cougar you have to open the door, preferably in an enclosed area (garage, parking deck, etc.) for the echo, but if that's not available, at least on pavement or in a parking lot. Put your foot on the door light switch, turn the key forward but don't start the car. You should hear the pump whir for a second or two. It should be audible but almost barely so. If you hear it loud and clear, it's going south.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 20, 2005, 01:29:45 PM
Well, what I mean is, I've probably heard it at initial KOEO like you describe, but I haven't heard it over the engine. I HAVE heard my '86's pump while it was running, though. The two cars are parked nose-to-nose.. so the environment is essentially the same. (in other words, it's not a case of one's in the garage and one isn't.. I have no garage) And, just as a footnote, I never close the door on the '88 when I'm running it.. except that one day I "drove" it (let it idle in gear) around the yard.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 21, 2005, 01:54:57 PM
How about this (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HLY%2D12%2D912&N=4294925239+4294839053+4294908331+4294836951&autoview=sku) one?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 21, 2005, 03:14:42 PM
That'll work. When you shop for them, you will only need the pump and sock, NOT the whole assembly. Sometimes they're sold complete for Mustangs...those will not work in our tanks.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 21, 2005, 03:30:11 PM
I'd probably just order that right there. AutoHole wants $75 for a pump, if I recall.. plus close to $10 for a new sock. Might as well just get the Holley.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 21, 2005, 05:46:52 PM
You could swap the LSC tank onto the Tbird(yea its the same except for the gage sending unit, I've done it) (actually I'm kiddin on the swappin part).... OR maybe you should swap the HO into the Bird and the SO in to the Mark......then just "default" on the LSC. :evilgrin: (kiddin again)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 21, 2005, 06:02:54 PM
Yeah, I know I could do tons of screwy stuff with these three things sittin' out here together.. and I've thought about it. (things like putting the HO in the '88 and putting the oft-discussed supercharged EFI 300 in the Mark for the "ultimate road trip car" project) But I think that, barring any catastrophic damage to any one of them, I'm going to try not to favor one over the rest too much. I'm just glad to have all three.
In all this, I've only ever cannibalized one car over another twice.. and in one of those cases, I bought a replacement part (coil) later on anyway.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 23, 2005, 05:01:29 PM
Well, I'm still stuck with this one, mainly because I can't afford to do shiznit with it until this Mark is paid off.
However.. it came up again with a different local friend about cleaning the injectors. In his words, just tossing them into a coffee can full of solvent (I forget which, might've been paint thinner or something like that.. it was very late at night when we had this conversation) and forget about 'em for a day.
What I want to know is, would this be a complete waste of time or even damaging to the injectors, or is this something I should probably do while I'm waiting for a more favorable financial situation to deal with possibly replacing the fuel pump? (after I test pressure, of course)
My other local friend (the one that busted the TFI and replaced it) is coming over today to finish what he started as far as setting the timing. Once that's done, aside from more cleaning, there's really not much else I can do to the car aside from something like soaking the injectors like that.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 23, 2005, 11:32:07 PM
Quote
What I want to know is, would this be a complete waste of time or even damaging to the injectors,
I'd deffinetely replace the o-rings after that. Thinner has a way of hardening rubber.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 23, 2005, 11:33:06 PM
Is that going to cost much?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 23, 2005, 11:34:43 PM
5 bucks maybe?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 23, 2005, 11:39:17 PM
Hmmm.. AutoHole doesn't list it as available for my vehicle. As in the part doesn't exist according to them. Odd. Morons.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot.. an update on the car's behavior. Now it doesn't want to rev past about 3500 RPM at all.. slow push on the pedal or stab at it.. cold or warm.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 24, 2005, 12:08:20 AM
Iv'e seen em in parts stores
Quote
AutoHole doesn't list it as available for my vehicle. As in the part doesn't exist according to them. Odd. Morons.
You've been using their always wrong online parts lookup. Remember my thread about mayhaps slapping an exploder cam in a 88t-bird I had my eye on? According to the hole the SO and HO had the same firing order. They've since fixed that error yet I still see many others....
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 24, 2005, 12:12:44 AM
Yeah, I know the O-rings exist. (if nothing else, I was looking over my Haynes manual today in the section discussing removing the injectors) Just that AutoHole's webmaster needs a .
Should I be worried about the caps, too?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 24, 2005, 12:23:02 AM
Nah, they tend to take a lot more abuse. The rubber o-rings corrodes after time and are designed to work with petroleum based products. When I was in the Air Force I was A Fuel Systems Mechanic. The job entailed crawling around in aircraft fuel tanks, fixing leaks, troubleshooting fuelsystem problems and changing components and parts. Many of the fuel lines are coupled together and hold pressure. At those coupling points o-rings are used to keep things leak free. The O-rings have a shelf life of 10 years in storage (in a parts bin waiting to be used), but can last much longer in a fuel tank. The main cause of failure? They crack and become brittle.....
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 24, 2005, 12:27:48 AM
I guess I'll have to pick some up tomorrow, then.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 24, 2005, 01:17:05 PM
Aight.. got a few extra dollars to mess around with today. I'll be putting 5 gallons in the Mark, getting some 1/4" hose to drain some gas from this car, and picking up some O-rings and possibly some fresh paint thinner.. unless anyone has a better suggestion of what to soak these in overnight..
Should I save a little bit of gas to rinse them off in once they're done soaking, or just let 'em dry and install 'em (with the new O-rings) the next day?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 24, 2005, 04:38:52 PM
Quote
Should I save a little bit of gas to rinse them off in once they're done soaking, or just let 'em dry and install 'em (with the new O-rings) the next day?
Yes, and when you install them dont forget to lubricate the O-rings with some petrolatum or equivalent (Vaseline is about 85% petrolatum)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 24, 2005, 04:48:49 PM
They didn't have any in stock at AutoHole.. so I may go to Advanced/Discount or something.
Pumping the gas out of the '88 now.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 24, 2005, 09:40:22 PM
OK, we're trying to secure at the very least a dial pressure gauge with no max pressure lock on it, to test the fuel pressure before we go dropping the tank. I need to double-check what fuel pressure I should see.. Shawn guessed 37-42.. is this correct?
I pumped out all but 2 gallons of gas from the tank. Hell, we even killed the battery doing it. I put 4 gallons of that gas in every other car in the yard, plus held 4 more in spare cans. Have 5 gallons of 93 octane sitting in another can. If it does turn out to be the fuel pump, I'll just pump out the rest of the gas completely, drop the gas tank and replace the pump, and then put in another new fuel filter. I even have a can of Sea Foam here for any other fuel system cleaning needs.
So, kerosene is good with tank sludge? If I'm going to drop this tank, I might as well do something like that to clean it up.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on April 25, 2005, 11:38:22 AM
Quote
I need to double-check what fuel pressure I should see.. Shawn guessed 37-42.. is this correct?
Factory # is 39 PSI with the vacuum line disconnected.
Quote
So, kerosene is good with tank sludge?
I would assume so....Never tried it. make sure you get all the kerosene out before you refill that tank though.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 26, 2005, 01:35:06 PM
Slightly odd new twist:
I decided I wasn't going to wait for my friend to show up, (he can't come over again until tomorrow.. is busy tonight) and tried the pressure gauge myself.
It's just a cheap little CH tire pressure gauge, but a dial gauge with no max pressure lock. I was told this would suffice for a quick and dirty test.
Well, the pressure gauge gets NOTHING. I really pushed it on there a couple times.. had to hold the fuel lines in place, I was concerned I was pressing so hard. I know the gauge works, I've tested it on several tires so far.
However, here's the odd part: Before I tried it, I was getting around an 800 RPM on a warmed-up engine, but it was a little bit rough. After I tried the gauge, the engine smoothed out and idle increased to about 1400 RPM. It still bogs when you stab the pedal, but now it is again able to slowly rev up past 5k. (it lost that ability for awhile)
Could I have just tightened the schrader valve too much and put it too far into the stem, or could I really have no significant fuel pressure? When I used Tom's grounding/quarter-inch-hose trick the other day to drain most of the tank, the flow from the hose was leisurely.. no sputtering, just a gentle flow of gas. (it reads 6 gallons in it now.. I put some fresh 93 in it before trying this test, just in case having only 2 gallons in the tank might affect the results negatively)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 26, 2005, 02:32:03 PM
OK.. another update.
I had to push on it really hard, but the gauge finally gave a reading. 10 PSI at idle, no change when revved up a little bit.
Did not have the vacuum line to the FPR disconnected, now that I think about it. Would that account for any of the difference?
EDIT: Nevermind, still 10 PSI with the FPR disconnected.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 26, 2005, 05:38:52 PM
Well, I'm guessing I have more gas tank draining in my future.
If I do have to replace this fuel pump, would I be wise to get a new FPR at the same time? I think the replacement one at AutoHole was like $18.99 or something. I'd still probably get the Holley pump I linked to.. and another fuel filter, since I'm going to completely drain the tank this time. Figure I'll suck up enough to possibly ruin even a 6-month-old filter.. and even if I don't, I don't see how replacing it when I do the other things could hurt.
Since we need a third functioning vehicle around here if I'm going to extended-loan my '86 to my aunt for driving to work, I may get some help on picking up these parts and getting it titled.. help separate of my own efforts to pay for this other car, which might need a bit more work to be roadworthy. I'll evaluate each possibility (fix + tag LSC if I pay for it soon vs. fuel pump replacement + tag for '88) over the next few days, because it's sure a hell of a lot less depressing than researching some disease I probably inherited from my father.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 29, 2005, 03:57:25 PM
Drove it again today, to a whole whopping 10 miles per hour in my front yard.. heh. Anyway, I put it in the driveway so I could drop the tank and all that stuff without wondering what was lurking in the grass around us. (fire ants, snakes, etc.)
Just waiting on that watch auction to finish tonight.. that's my fuel pump/sock/filter/O-ring/kerosene/paint-thinner money. (see above, if that's to make any sense)
Hoping no one pays attention to the lack of a tag on it while it's parked there.. (I usually park the Mark and the '88 nose towards the street to hide this particular deficiency, and put the '86 ass towards the street to show I have A tag.. and just hope no one gets too nosy) I have a little over a week (and a half, counting weekends) before my fiance starts temping.. and two functioning cars would help that a LOT. (I'd still have to drive her to and from work so I had a car in case of emergency)
Sounds so much different than the Mark's HO..
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 29, 2005, 06:15:26 PM
Ahh, lovely.. broke a little chunk off the front of the car while trying desperately to get up to where I could have a poke at that screen in the PCV valve hole. Not huge.. but it me off nonetheless. (that I was that stupid) That screen looks like a solid mat of junk. I've poked it with a screwdriver several times to try and remove it, but can't get it to come out. Should I just leave it in there all mangled and full of holes? (this was something that you guys mentioned to me way back when I first got the car.. I finally decided to check it out since I had to pull the upper to get the injectors out anyway)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 29, 2005, 10:18:16 PM
Oh well, auction ped out. Didn't even make it to $100. I'll take the watch to someone to have it cleaned, or ask a friend to do it. (he works with models.. much steadier hands) But that probably means no fuel pump this coming week.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: MasterBlaster on April 30, 2005, 08:42:55 AM
Quote
That screen looks like a solid mat of junk.
Just a bunch of steel wool crammed into a little can with mesh on either end. You should be able to get it out with a long skinny screw (do any drywalling?) taped securely to the screwdriver tip and used like a corkscrew, or a skinny pair of needlenose pliers. .
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 30, 2005, 10:25:31 AM
HAH! I just gave all my drywall screws to a friend.
No big deal, can get one back next time I talk to him.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 30, 2005, 03:28:55 PM
Got it.. used a #10 x 3" wood screw. Thanks. It was a hideous mess.
I wonder if this will help a little bit with the issue of blowing oil up into the TB via that connection to the oil filler tube.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 30, 2005, 10:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bird351
Got it.. used a #10 x 3" wood screw. Thanks. It was a hideous mess.
I wonder if this will help a little bit with the issue of blowing oil up into the TB via that connection to the oil filler tube.
Should help a lot.... You can take it apart clean the wire mesh, then reassemble it...
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 30, 2005, 10:49:14 PM
Is it OK to just leave it out? I've sorta mangled it a bit.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 30, 2005, 10:54:28 PM
It wil suck oil in through the PCV if you leave it out...
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 30, 2005, 10:58:33 PM
Hmmm.. guess I'll have to clean it up then. Got a couple holes in the screens, though.
EDIT: Is this a buyable part? AutoHole's site lists no such item I can see.. but I might not be looking for the right name.
Another EDIT: http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=PUR&mfrpartnumber=B15231&parttype=3&ptset=B
Nevermind. Looks like I was looking under the wrong name. This is it, right?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: nirvanagod on April 30, 2005, 11:34:57 PM
5.0 Resto has it for $5.95, motorcraft branded: http://secure.50resto.com/product1.cfm?SID=1&Product_ID=2131
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on April 30, 2005, 11:35:56 PM
Kool.. I should pick up a pair of 'em. (change out the one on the LSC, too)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 02, 2005, 03:14:39 PM
OK.. since I can't afford the fuel pump for the moment, I am working on cleaning the injectors while I have the upper removed.
I got all the wires disconnected.. only partially broke one little mounting tab! :D (I figured the death toll would be higher) Got all the injectors out of their holes without any apparent loss of O-rings or plastic hats. Now the big problem is the fuel rail. These little buggers will NOT come out of the fuel rail. I do not have the tool to remove the connection so that I can pull the whole fuel rail off, so I am stuck trying to pull them off with the fuel rail still sort of in place. On the driver's side, I can pull that half of the rail up and pull on the injectors horizontally. On the passenger side, I'm probably in for a knuckle-buster.
Any tips for popping these off? I'm really concerned that I'm starting to pull too hard on them and I don't want to break 'em. Even if they are 14# injectors, they're the only ones I have until I can afford a partial HO swap. (if that's what I decide to do)
I'm thinking of pulling the two CFI injectors off the '86 on the night I let everything soak.. but I don't know if I want two re-assembly projects on my plate at once. (of course the '86 takes precedence since it's my only driveable car)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 02, 2005, 04:39:36 PM
Yay, I only broke a piece off of one injector! Well, they're out. Suppose this means I should replace this one injector, though.. the piece that broke off is just under the O-ring for the fuel rail, behind the electrical connection. (yeah, I cheated to get the last one out because it was a bitch.. and I paid the price for cheatin')
$37.99 for a GP-Sorensen replacement injector (http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=C001&UserAction=performMoreDetail&Parameters=TRUE%7C%7EFUEL+INJECTOR%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EGP-SORENSEN%7C%7ENEW+++++++++++++++++%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7E79706%7C%7E1280%7C%7E800-1014N%7C%7EO.E.M.+%23E59E-A1A%2C+E59E-A2A%2C+E59E-A2B%2C+E59E-A3A%2C+++++++%0A++++++++E59E-AB%2C++E67E-B1A%2C+E67E-B1B%2C+E67E-B4B%2C+++++++%0A++++++++E7DE-A2B%2C+E7DE-B1B%2C+E7DE-B4B%2C+F03E-A2A%2C+++++++%0A++++++++F03E-A2B%2C+F0SE-A1A%2C+F1ZE-B4C%2C+F47E-A2D%7C%7E%2437.99%7C%7EFORD%7C%7ETHUNDERBIRD%7C%7E1988%7C%7E1+YR%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EB) from AutoHole, for injector part # E59E-A2E.
$5.99 for an O-ring kit (http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=C001&UserAction=performMoreDetail&Parameters=TRUE%7C%7EFUEL+INJECTOR%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EGP-SORENSEN%7C%7EO-RING+KIT++++++++++%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7E79646%7C%7E1280%7C%7E800-9212%7C%7E2+REQUIRED%7C%7E%245.99%7C%7EFORD%7C%7ETHUNDERBIRD%7C%7E1988%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EB) , says "2 required". I hope the "kit" means 8 of 'em.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 02, 2005, 05:20:45 PM
BTW, is it a bad idea to reuse the O-rings from the fuel rail side? Aside from some tiny stress lines on them up top, they look to be in really good condition. The other (manifold side) O-rings are a little eaten up, so obviously I will replace them. Anyway, most of the fuel rail O-rings remained in the fuel rail.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the plastic hat on the injector I broke a chunk off of is also chipped.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on May 03, 2005, 07:59:10 AM
As long as they look OK you can re-use em. Remember to lube them up before you put them back on.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 03, 2005, 09:09:39 AM
What about this injector with the cracked hat and the chip off the top ring? Buy the cheap AutoHole replacement injector?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Metal Matt on May 03, 2005, 09:29:36 AM
Wow, looks like I'm not the only one here chasing down one of those seemingly incurable problems. Not to change the subject, but check on the back side of the throttlebody... you might find one of these. I'm thinking it might be my problem too.
(http://www.metalmatt.com/images/fixd.gif)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 03, 2005, 09:33:28 AM
Heh.. I wish it was as easy as a switch.
One more annoying O-ring question: Pull the hats off the injectors to get the bottom O-rings off? Or will they go over the hats without a problem? One or two of these hats are loose.. but I don't want to go pulling them apart just yet. (until I hear from someone else about it)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: amy72jean on May 04, 2005, 03:35:31 AM
let me know what's up with your car, i don't understand all of the abriviated parts that yall are mentioning but mine sat for a couple of years, ran like (tranny wouldn't shift into high) my friend undid the throttle position plastic thing that tells the tranny to shift, ran fine for awhile then started bogging out. Now it's doing the same as what you are describing
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 05, 2005, 06:52:11 PM
Got the crankcase breather filter replaced.. $5.18 for a Purolator at Advanced/Discount. AutoHole doesn't even carry it, which I found odd.. but that's AutoHole for ya.
Couldn't get the proper O-rings. AutoHole didn't have 'em in the back, and only had the O-ring assortments in the "HELP!" section.. almost $3 per pack, and only 2 O-rings that looked to be the correct size in each pack. Sorry, I'd rather not pay ~$12 for 8 O-rings if I can avoid it. The guy at Advanced wouldn't even look in the back.. but I was too tired to push him on it. He puppiesed me off on their "HELP!" section without even a second thought. I guess I'll have to track down NAPA or something.. 'cause the injectors are getting their overnight paint thinner bath already.
Nothing more on the pump yet. Everything's pretty much on hold with that for a couple weeks, unless an unexpected source of $100 or so pops up. (so I can pick up a new filter at the same time)
Now that I have the fuel rail off for the injector cleaning, should I replace the FPR while it's still somewhat easy to get to? I think they were $18 at AutoHole. (plus a listing for an O-ring for that)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 05, 2005, 07:20:08 PM
Here's one of the O-rings I did pick up, since they were only 29 cents a piece. I figured it wasn't a huge loss if they were unusable. The one on the right is one of the O-rings from the fuel rail.
O-well.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: larrycar78 on May 07, 2005, 07:33:07 PM
I'm putting in my 2 cents. I think you need to go back to how you set up the original idle. I would disconnect the IAC electrical connection, back off the throttle adjusting screw until it doesn't touch anything and the plate is fully closed. Turn in the screw 5 turns after it hits the arm on the plate, start the engine and it should fast idle. Turn the screw out and drop the idle to about 675. Shut off the motor and reconnect the IAC plug. the engine should start right up, if not then you need to clean your IAC valve. Take it off and clean it with carb cleaner. The TPS should be set seperately with a digital volt meter. Turn the ignition to ON but don't start the engine. The green wire is positive, black is negative (or common), make sure the meter is set for the right range. Loosen the 2 screws on the top and adjust until you get the right numbers, even if you have to elongate the holes a little. The TPS tells the EEC your fuel/air ratio so if it is not set right it may be sending a wacky signal to the EEC.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 07, 2005, 07:42:09 PM
Well, I can't do anything of the sort right now.. the top of the engine is in several pieces.
- Took the upper intake off it to touch-up paint and clearcoat it. - Took the injectors out to soak them in paint thinner. Did so for 2 days, then soaked them in gasoline for 2-3 hours or so. - I'll probably replace the FPR while the rail is off.. when I can afford to buy the FPR, pump, and new filter for after the tank drain and drop.
Also, the engine acts the same way whether I use its IAC or the IAC I borrowed from my Lincoln's 5.0. The T-bird's IAC was already cleaned with carb cleaner some time ago.
I've set the TPS voltage several times now. I found my smaller round file and I'll be elongating the holes a little bit before I reassemble the manifold/spacer/TB.
I'm stuck waiting until I can afford one new/replacement 14# injector, because one of my current ones is broken in two spots. (the cap, and the ring just below the rail O-ring)
While I'm on that subject: Can anyone tell me if it's a bad idea to try and pull the caps off for changing the O-rings on the manifold side of the injectors? Should I be cutting off the old ones that soaked in the paint thinner for 2 days instead?
EDIT: Here's the damage to the injector:
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bob on May 23, 2005, 11:24:33 PM
Quote
Friend came over today to set the timing by hand/ear.. got his wrench on the bolt holding in the distributor, and proceeded to break the TFI module clean in half when it slipped.
HHAHA I did that a couple of months ago... cheap a$$ swival I have... live and learn right birdman..
Quote
I'm stuck waiting until I can afford one new/replacement 14# injector
Oh I just tossed 8 14# injectors in the trash last week too :giggle: someone around here should have 1 or 2 they can hook you up with .. ;)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 24, 2005, 12:01:45 AM
Got a hookup on the replacement 14#s.
Project's still on hold.. had to replace the exhaust that got ripped off the '86 weekend before last. Amazing what you can do with ~$70 worth of pipe and clamps.. but it ate up any possible profit from the yard sale.. which could've taken care of the fuel pump.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 28, 2005, 06:08:00 PM
Yep, it's the return of the thread that refuses to die.
OK, I got six of the eight injectors back into the '88 today, but something's puzzling me.
I bought brand new O-rings for the manifold side of the injectors.. I figured out to just cut the old O-rings off and slip these on with that little plastic suppository-lookin' thing that came with the package. I also poured a little bit of 5w30 into a paint cap (since it called for oil to be put on the rings, and that was really all I had available) and dropped all the O-rings into the paint cap. Putting the O-rings on between the caps and the injectors was just about as easy/difficult as I guessed it would be, having to stretch them like that while slippery and all.. but now I pop the injectors into the manifold, and they do not hold in place at all. They just slip right out. Is this normal for right after installation? Will tightening down the fuel rail help hold them in place until the O-rings expand or whatever?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: jcassity on May 28, 2005, 09:34:26 PM
Id be carefull on that if they slip out real real easy. the intake will expand when it warms up so maybe you buy out some slack that way. Id say your o-rings are thinner since you had to force em on that much. sounds like you really did stretch them.
Perhaps you should get the orange colored orings, they are better quality. I dont know how to technically guage oring theory or anything but its my guess they are too thin while installed.
if your ok with them,, then use some automotive silicon around the intake orings. spray out the intake bung first with cleaner so your not mixing oil with sealant.
did you see if the same thing happens on the fuel rail end?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 28, 2005, 09:37:51 PM
I reused the old O-rings on the rail side of the injectors. They were not showing any hardening or deterioration. I tried popping the rail off the injectors, but it just pulls the injectors out of the manifold.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: jcassity on May 29, 2005, 08:28:25 AM
did you get a chance to look at the screens?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 29, 2005, 08:38:53 AM
The screens looked OK.. soaked the injectors in paint thinner for two days, then in gasoline for a couple hours after that. (the rail-side O-rings were not on the injectors for the soaking)
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: V8Demon on May 31, 2005, 08:28:10 AM
Actually, older O-rings have a tendency to swell up just a bit with time. That plus the fact that you had them out with no stress on them would lead me to believe this is what happened. Are you sure that the injectors are actually 100% seated when you stick them on the rail?
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 31, 2005, 09:04:21 AM
I stuck 'em in as hard as I dared push 'em.
I'll push 'em down again pretty hard when I go to put the last 2 in and bolt down the fuel rail.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on May 31, 2005, 01:48:17 PM
OK.. got two replacement injectors today.. thanks to Tom. Problem now is getting replacement pintle caps. Specifically asked AutoHole and the Ford dealer for them a few days ago, both said no. I was just told Napa SHOULD have them, but their website does not list them. (and they list something like 4 pages' worth of stuff for injectors) Only place I haven't tried is Advance. I might go by there today when I'm "oot and aboot". :p
Thanks to my taxi-type services this past week or so, I should be getting some financial help on getting that fuel pump for this car, and the 95A alternator I need for the other T-bird. Hopefully by this time next week this project should be moving along again.
Title: Re: '88 5.0 starting/running problems
Post by: Bird351 on June 22, 2005, 10:22:45 PM
Another one back from the dead today.
Just placed an order for two injector seal kits. Each kit is 2 O-rings, a pintle cap, and that little plastic washer. I soaked the injectors in paint thinner and gasoline for a few days just to make sure they were clean, (but I think Tom said he tested them before shipping and they were fine, so this was largely redundant and driven by having way too much time on my hands) and even taped off the ends to shoot 'em with a little bit of 500 degree gloss black to match the quickie touch-up paint job I gave the other 6.
Ground shipment.. should have 'em next week sometime. Now I need to work on securing the replacement fuel pump. My best opportunity is probably this coming weekend. (for delivery sometime next week, as well)
On an unrelated side note about that car: I found out for sure that the windshield leaks when it rains. It's been dripping down onto the carpet over the tranny/driveshaft tunnel. I dread pulling up the carpet someday.. but at least now I have some Damp-Rid inside the car, along with a catch can.. and at some point I'll try to seal that up. It's dripping down the wire for the auto-dim sensor on the rearview mirror mounting.