Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: flipnbird on February 18, 2009, 07:43:21 AM
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 18, 2009, 07:43:21 AM
For x-mas my wife went in half on a set of new trick flow heads now in my possesion, any guesses on hp/ torque with stock cam and my other mods(in sig)
Also i am contemplating having a custom cam made, which will probably be the route i go, any guesses on hp/torque with custom and my other mods(in sig)
I am also going to get a better stahl for the aod, thinking the street B&M 2400-3200 lock up.But none of this will be happening till early-mid summer.
Thanks
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: vinnietbird on February 18, 2009, 08:03:59 AM
275-280.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 18, 2009, 08:51:50 AM
Around that. No need for a cust cam and way over priced unless your racing,in my opinion. Run a trickflow stage 1 with your 1.7s. It's a nice all around cam and with the 1.7s and will give you lift of approx .530/.540. I'm running that same combo but with a 70mm t-body 42's and a vortech,runs like a raped ape with a lopy idle.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: 86T-bird on February 18, 2009, 09:34:33 AM
Imo custom cam is the only way to go, particularly for the street. I've had lots of OTS cams, it only took one custom to sell me on the benefits. In my experiece a custom cam will idle, have great vacuum, instant thottle throttle reponse, great power power band, rev with no valve float, good fuel economy, no issues w/P/V clearance. More expensive: yes. To me, worth every penny.
SBFTECH.com has a lot of great information which outlines the benefits of a stable valve train and a cam designed for your combination. If you have 10 or more posts there, you have access to the full site. It's worth the read (particularly the Myth & Rumors section).
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 18, 2009, 09:41:48 AM
@dominator----just wonder if i would be able to run that much lift with my flat tops(no reliefs) @vinnie----is that your guess with the stock cam or aftermarket?? I would be happy with 275,280 either way.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: vinnietbird on February 18, 2009, 10:15:37 AM
My opinion was with the custom cam.It may be a little more...maybe.I've seen some guys get great power with a stock H.O cam.In the end it's up to you.I'm not telling you to go one way or another.My friend has a custom ground cam built for him using the specs of everything else that was given,and he was making about 5 more horses than the sport with an E303.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 18, 2009, 12:15:22 PM
I figured you had an HO longblock in your car,my bad. No you can't run that much lift with SO pistons. Around .500 is the max,ask vinnie.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Haystack on February 18, 2009, 11:26:57 PM
trick flow heads have different valve locations. They claim you can run almost any cam with flat tops. Ask tom.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 19, 2009, 12:49:11 AM
Yea but .530/.540 is quite a bit for flat tops. Not sure about that one.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 01:28:09 AM
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I figured you had an HO longblock in your car,my bad. No you can't run that much lift with SO pistons. Around .500 is the max,ask vinnie.
For the Umpteenth time Lift has almost NOTHING to do with piston to valve clearance!
PISTON TO VALVE CLEARANCE CHECK PROCEDURES:
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Piston to valve clearance is the relationship is just that, the distance from the valve to the piston during the most critical time in the engines cycle, that time is the "overlap". No other time during the engines cycle is the piston closer to the valve than in the overlap. Overlap occurs at the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke. This is the time when both the intake and the exhaust valves are open simultaneously.
A lot of people have used the max lift number when calculating piston to valve clearance and that is probably the single worst method. When the valve reaches it's maximum lift point the the piston is actually furthest away traveling down the cylinder bore drawing the intake charge in. The minimum clearances commonly used are .080 on the intake valve and .100 on the exhaust valve. For people using an aluminum rod it's a good idea to allow more clearance as the aluminum rods stretch when in operation.
To use the clay method take a 1/4th inch amount, cover the valve reliefs on your piston and rotate the engine one full cycle. Make sure it's 2 revolutions past top dead center. Take the head back off and peel the clay away. The best benefit of clay is that you can use an x-acto knife and cut it into sections and measure exactly where the thinnest area is, if there is any. Remember .080 and .100 minimum thickness.
The next method takes a little practice but is great if you dont want to take the heads off the car, although it will be necessary to replace the intake and exhaust valve springs on one of the cylinders. It's best to use a checking spring, but if you don't have a dedicated light weight spring, take a trip to your local hardware store. Remember the spring only has to have enough pressure to keep the valves fully closed and return an open valve back to it's closed postition.
Now you want to adjust the rockers to zero lash. What is important here is if you are using a hydraulic type cam, wether it be a hydraulic roller or flat tappet hydraulic cam. Do NOT preload the lifter. All you want to do is take all the movement out of the pushrod WITHOUT collapsing the plunger in the lifter. Make sure you do this adjustment when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam which is at top dead center on the compression stroke.
You will need feeler gauges set to 0.100 thousandth's. Start with your piston at top dead center and rotate one full revolution in normal operating rotation. The piston starts traveling back up the bore, the exhaust stroke starts to occur, and the exhaust valve will start opening. Watching the valve train you will notice the exhaust valve opening till it's fully open. As you are approaching top dead center you will notice the intake valve starting to open before the exhaust valve is fully closed. This is the area of overlap, usually about 10-15 degress before and after top dead center. Both the intake and exhaust valves are open and the piston is near the top. During this overlap point is when you want to measure the piston to valve clearance.
The piston is so close to to the top that you can push down on the nose of the rocker and actually feel the valve making contact with the piston. Now; with your feeler gauge set to 0.100, insert the feeler gauge between the valve stem tip and the rocker arm. If you can insert the gauge at 0.80 for the intake and 0.100 for the exhaust then you have enough piston to valve clearance.
It may take you some trial and error before you can identify the prescise overlap period at which you need to check the clearances, but this is a good way for someone that does not want to take off the heads.
I highly suggest you go through the steps above several times, it is VERY easy to miss the overlap, resulting in very unaccurate measurements. Work slow and this process can be accomplished by just about anyone.
Final note, if your measurements are say less than 0.10, for example there is .090 clearance on the intake you can retard the camshaft and play around with that but remember that will also affect performace charactersitics of the cam.
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Yea but .530/.540 is quite a bit for flat tops.
In 2 weeks, I'll be running .565"....... (http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/V8Demon/CAM-1.jpg)
And with that picture, you have MY answer (guess the cat's out of the bag :hick: )
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 19, 2009, 05:56:50 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;257633
For the Umpteenth time Lift has almost NOTHING to do with piston to valve clearance!
I knew that .....that was another reason i was planning on custom, tell them my set up, what i want out of the car and they deliver !!!!!!!!!!
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 19, 2009, 10:20:23 AM
OH GOD v8 demon TAKE A FREAKIN CHILL PILL!!!!!!!!!!! As he said we knew that but we don't need to go into literal time consuming about that right now. He asked a simple question and the cam i suggested with those rockers will not work with his flat tops. 90% of people in here are not going to go through the calculations or sit and waste time with a degree wheel or clay. Hell i won't and i'm a tech,went too school once don't want to do it again!!! Read the post before you start freakin out. Nobody needs it including me.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
The only way to truly know is to go through those measurements. I can surmise that since my post was longer than one sentence, you didn't read it. I DID read. You gave an erroneous answer.
Question:
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I just wonder if i would be able to run that much lift with my flat tops(no reliefs)
Dominator's answer:
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No you can't run that much lift with SO pistons. Around .500 is the max,ask vinnie.
For a "tech" you do that on occasion. I'm sure you'll respond to this with something along the lines of how much power your car has. Just because you can follow an instruction sheet on how to mount a supercharger does not make you all knowing.
I've told you this before. THIS IS A TECHNICAL THREAD! IMHO it's better to be thorough. Perhaps by doing so someone will actually learn from it.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: blu84302 on February 19, 2009, 12:35:20 PM
Thanks for the info v8demon. That was the first time I've read how to check PTV clearance. And congrats on the custom cam.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 19, 2009, 02:04:27 PM
Let me add this, the bigger the lift will matter, because the exhaust valve will be out there longer to hit the piston. I would be curios as to what valve Vinnie bent? There is a lot more to it than that. besides the floating without the right springs, with bigger cams.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: vinnietbird on February 19, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
And as I said ....ALMOST nothing AFA max lift is concerned...
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 19, 2009, 03:09:28 PM
Paul, I here you, but to shove a cam in without knowing the specs is and can be bad! Theres not much lead way with higher lift cams. Every thousands matter. You can get the best "custom cam" if it is not installed right you will bend valves.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 19, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Paul, If lift didn't matter, why can't we run 600+ lift?
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 03:46:03 PM
Quote
Paul, I here you, but to shove a cam in without knowing the specs is and can be bad! Theres not much lead way with higher lift cams. Every thousands matter. You can get the best "custom cam" if it is not installed right you will bend valves.
Kitz, I'm the person who's actually saying to check the PTV clearance. I totally agree that not knowing the specs is a bad thing. Custom cams come with the specs :) That piece of paper in the pic I posted is in fact the spec card. There is no doubt in my mind from looking at it and comparing it to my current stage 1 that provided it is installed correctly, the new cam will have plenty of clearance.
Quote
Paul, If lift didn't matter, why can't we run 600+ lift?
Can't and shouldn't are 2 different things....Depending on the rest of the combo. As ramp rates increase, so does the need for more seat pressure and upgraded springs/locks/retainers as you also stated above.
FWIW My buddy ran more the .600" with some dished pistons a standard block and some Monstrously ported GT-40 heads...The duration was quite high as well and peak power occured just past 7200 RPM. The block itself was from a '91 Town Car.
To look at JUST max lift as is often done leaves many viable options off the table. FWIW I'll bet you could grind a cam with .450" max lift with 1.6 rockers for a 5.0 Windsor and have less than optimum clearance even if installed with zero degrees advance.
Duration, ramp rate, overlap.
[SIZE="5"]TIMING EVENTS[/SIZE]
Please read the quote I've placed in my first post in the thread. ;)
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 19, 2009, 03:53:38 PM
This is the last comment I make here on his post, because it won't help him. I seen your first post. I do disagree with your thinking. You can Pm me to talk more.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 03:58:50 PM
Fair enough, but the words in the quote aren't my words.....they're the words of an engine builder with far more experience than me. I've seen enough to know it's true.
You can easily run a TFS#1 cam with your Twisted Wedge heads. Ask TurboCoupe50. He has been running that setup for quite a few years with no issues.
Just as V8Demon says, lift is only a factor in PTV clearance.
Either that, or you can listen to other people and smack a valve. We don't see it from out computers.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 05:06:56 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;257703
Ahem...factory cast heads with stock springs.
And an over-rev....
Valve float is not your friend...
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: vinnietbird on February 19, 2009, 05:13:49 PM
Over rev.......That brings chills to me.BAAAAAD memories.LOL.I was lucky it was only one valve.I haven't had a problem since I got re-acquainted with a standard transmission.It had been years since I drove one when I killed the valve.I DID spank a Mustang GT in the process though,so,it wasn't completely for not.LOL.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 19, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
IF clearance was a issue on the TW heads, you'd have long been hearing about bent valves... This is because with the rotated(twisted) valve configuration, no conventional pistons have reliefs that are in the correct position... Basically unless you have TW specific pistons, they ALL are flattops... To a TW head, HO pistons are identical to SO's...
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 19, 2009, 11:10:45 PM
Listen, no where did i say i was all knowing. Yep my car does have a good amount of power,none of your business or concern. I don't need to be insulted by you saying i can't read more than one sentence,was way uncalled for. Got plenty of knowledge about engines and don't need to explain to you.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 19, 2009, 11:46:06 PM
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Listen, no where did i say i was all knowing. Yep my car does have a good amount of power,none of your business or concern.
Hmmmm.... Remember THIS?
Quote from: Dominator
K done with this thread,you guys are idiots,who here has a 500hp 5.0L....do i here crickets o yea that's right i do and i know what it takes to make hp. I'm also a liscensed class A mechanic. Why do you think nobody with real hp except me has posted in this thread,it's because you won't listen.
I don't need to be insulted by you saying i can't read more than one sentence,was way uncalled for.
Your comment directed at me warranted my response. Also I didn't say you were incapable of reading more than one sentence, I said in that instance that I surmised you didn't. By the tone of YOUR post it impressed that you read very little of my post and just began to type yours. Follow through appears to be lacking on posting and reading on your part.
BTW, THIS HERE is saying that you can't read more than one sentence: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=149874&postcount=26
Quote from: softtouch;149874
Your ignorance is showing. Look up fluid in your dictionary, assuming you can read a dictionary.
That was from possibly the most even tempered individual on here. I'd be very surprised if you could find another post of that nature from him.
Quote
Got plenty of knowledge about engines and don't need to explain to you.
Trust me, I don't need an explanation of ANY sort from you. If you DO decide to contribute to a tech thread, at least have the decency and self-respect to give the best possible answer you can instead of giving a half-assed generalization.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 20, 2009, 06:19:29 AM
Thanks Guys.................
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 20, 2009, 07:36:36 AM
You know first off you look like a stalker, who just has to follow every post i ever made. My usual response to you would be F OFF but i'm not gonna do that here. Your the one pickin a fight and have been from the get go. Just shows the quality and integrity you have,RIGHT ON you go girl. Secondly my car against your any day(since you brought it up)then we'll see you can build better. You look like a real A-Hole to everyone on here who knows me and that i have helped in the past. You wanna start a WAR because you have nothing better to do in your pitifull life fine,count me out. However i will point out to the mods that he did insult me un purpose and should be warned. I only told him to take a pill because he comes in here guns blazin.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 09:22:03 AM
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You know first off you look like a stalker, who just has to follow every post i ever made.
No. just a good memory. That particular one stuck. Took me about ten seconds to find it.
Quote
You look like a real A-Hole to everyone on here who knows me and that i have helped in the past.
Your half assed answer here helps NOBODY.
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My usual response to you would be F OFF
I think we're all quite aware of that.
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Secondly my car against your any day(since you brought it up)then we'll see you can build better.
Here's that argument I was talking about -- the "I have a blower so I'm better" routine you throw out all the time. You know...the one I posted above. If you truly have 500 HP, you'd BETTER win, you'd look silly if you lost ;) I wonder if you'd be as confident in a race that did not involve a straight run.
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You wanna start a WAR because you have nothing better to do in your pitifull life fine,count me out.
I can think of someone YOU jump all over every chance you get. Are you counting yourself out because you know I'm right? BTW -- I thought you weren't insulting anyone......
Quote
However i will point out to the mods that he did insult me un purpose and should be warned. I only told him to take a pill because he comes in here guns blazin.
I insulted you by giving the detailed answer this thread deserved? Whatever....You're one of the most arrogant people I've had the displeasure of coming across. Did I balk at your answer? Yes, absolutely. There's a difference. Grow some thicker skin.
If you wish, feel free to PM me and we can banter some more. This thread is getting muddled.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 20, 2009, 10:43:59 AM
Can't we all just be friends?????????????
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 10:50:52 AM
Quote from: flipnbird;257833
Can't we all just be friends?????????????
Who knows......
I digress.
Seems none of us have touched upon your other part of the original post: The torque converter. With respect to that have you thought about what to do for holding WOT past 5K RPM?
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 20, 2009, 11:39:55 AM
Can't be friends with a guy that thinks he knows it all(V8 demon) because he posts a small piece(copied from someone else) on ptv clearance. No need to PM you,can't be bothered to argue with you anymore,here or anywhere else. Simply put stay out of my face and i will do the same with yours. However if you want to continue to be a STALKER and have an obsession with me(never came after you after that thread) then by all means continue this,i won't. In response to flipn,i tried to help man but this is what i get from some people,sorry to screw up your thread.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 11:46:43 AM
Quote
Simply put stay out of my face and i will do the same with yours.
I'll post where I please. Deal with it.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 20, 2009, 12:13:39 PM
The torque converter. With respect to that have you thought about what to do for holding WOT past 5K RPM?[/QUOTE]
explain...........what should i do? is there something that needs to be put in/out of tranny to accomplish this?
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 12:20:16 PM
Yes. The stock Cougar/Thunderbird tailshaft governor will allow up to just under 5000 RPM. The one that came in the Mustangs gave a bit more, maybe 400 RPM.
The Trans-Go shift kits come with one that's a step above that as well....It's the one I run.
Mucho in depth info here: http://www.clickclickracing.com
;)
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: flipnbird on February 20, 2009, 12:27:42 PM
Why Thank You Sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will look into this also..............I have a B&M (yea i know) shift kit in now and i always wondered why i can't hardly get above 5000 rpm.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 12:32:57 PM
Most shift kits don't address the tailshaft ;)
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 20, 2009, 01:14:20 PM
Man, this argument brings back memories. It's nice seeing that I'm not the only one that see's some people for who they are.
V8Demon, my car is faster than yours, my dick is bigger and you're dumber. TAKE THAT!
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: V8Demon on February 20, 2009, 01:21:24 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;257849
Man, this argument brings back memories. It's nice seeing that I'm not the only one that see's some people for who they are.
V8Demon, my car is faster than yours, my dick is bigger and you're dumber. TAKE THAT!
:rollin:
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: 86XR7project on February 20, 2009, 02:04:31 PM
Yikes, I feel a bit over my head. Virtual fist fights and tech that I don't know enough to understand......
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 20, 2009, 02:32:31 PM
Quote from: 86XR7project;257856
Yikes, I feel a bit over my head. Virtual fist fights and tech that I don't know enough to understand......
That's ok, just stick to your fox bodies.
:mullet:
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: 86XR7project on February 20, 2009, 02:52:06 PM
Sorry not quite understanding that comment. Where were you going with that one.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 20, 2009, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: 86XR7project;257859
Sorry not quite understanding that comment. Where were you going with that one.
Quote from: 86XR7project;257491
I'll stick with the fox body thank you very much.
;)
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: 86XR7project on February 20, 2009, 03:23:40 PM
Ahh, gotcha. I'm done thievin your thread.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: dominator on February 20, 2009, 06:40:28 PM
God your a loser with nothing better to do. V8LOSER aka STALKER,guess he must love me or something(homo)???????????????? Shawn i thought we had a truce man why are you in this???
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: 86XR7project on February 20, 2009, 07:33:06 PM
Dude are you serious? Grow up, calling someone a homo gets you no where. Insults ruin the forum for the rest of us trying to learn something. Thanks for g on everyone's parade.
Title: HP,,, guess
Post by: EricCoolCats on February 20, 2009, 07:41:48 PM
Part of me wants this to continue. Very introspective on personalities.
The other part wants to lock.
What to do...
:locked: Erring on the safe side.
Please people, contribute something useful to threads, or stay out of it. That's all we ask. Take the flaming to PMs.