I have an 87 T-Bird 2.3L turbo that eats 2G alternators at a prodigious rate (1 per week). I've obviously got some kind of dead short somewhere as its burning out the windings, but I'll be ed if I can find it even though I've visually inspected just about every wire in the vehicle. I thought I had it beat last time (bad ground clamp), but she chewed up another alternator today and the replacement I put on this afternoon is already running very warm. With the vehicle idling, I'm getting about 13.4 volts, 12.9 with the headlights on. But the alternator will get smoking hot after running for about 2 minutes.
There is no battery drain when the vehicle is off, so I know I don't have a short on a non-protected circuit. I would have thought that a dead short on a protected circuit would blow a fuse. Starter solenoid isn't sticking on, and otherwise appears to be working well. Today I ran a ground wire from the alternator body to the battery negative terminal, just in case the engine wasn't grounding properly.
So I'm beat. Where are my best spots to start looking for the culprit? I looked for bare or broken wires, but didn't see anything. Of course, I could have missed it too. Bad ignition module cause this issue?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Rod
I should also mention that the ammeter in the car NEVER shows a charging situation. Anything common on the gauge cluster that shorts out?
Have you/someone replaced the fusible links with wire?
I haven't, but that doesn't mean that someone else hasn't. Where should I be looking for fusible links? On the black/orange wires? I noticed some fusible links in my EVTM, but it didn't look to me like they were connected to alternator anywhere.
go to my diy link and you will find this.............
3g alternator upgrade 3.8, 5.0, 2.3
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=13641
please read this if you own a 2.3 and consider a 3g swap "death of a tbird"
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=15802
Please pay close attention to both threads as it reveals a lot of information you need to troubleshoot. The second link resulted in a car fire so get on this soon.
Forget the 3g,get with the times and get a 6g.
6g for a 3.8l will fit 5.0l and 2.3l.
2G's suck and will get really warm with even the slightest draw.
Reman 2g's aren't very good anyway.
You may not have a problem with the car it may just be a py alternator.
Check for positive terminal and make sure it's clean and tight,sounds like your running the car with a bad set of battery terminals or wires and the alternator is doing all the work in fact i'll bet on it..
Who said to upgrade to a 3g,, as in you stating to forget it?
I only posted usefull wiring specific information on his 2.3 since resources and troubleshooting for this to include the ammeter are lean.
it might sound all cool going with a 6g because then you have the ampacity of a genset,,:rollin: but,,,,,, what about the wiring througout the car? maybe yours has been upgraded and that why it works great for you.
I've got the 3G alternator swap all printed out and ready to rock, JCassity. Thanks. I was going to do it today when the old alternator bit the dust, but my supplier didn't have a 3G in stock and I live 11 miles out of town. Hadda git home :)
I'll check out the fire thread. Thanks.
Dominator: Sorry, should have mentioned it. I removed the butt ugly bolt on clamps today and went with brand spankin' new solder ons. Nary a bad clamp or terminal to be found. Cleaned all the wires with soldering paste before stuffing them into the new clamps.
Rod
Ok, read the fire thread. Not really seeing anything there that pertains to my situation, although I am ready to watch for gotchas when I'm doing the 3G install.
But before I do the 3G install, I think I should find where my current issue is before throwing 130 amps at the car. While I realize the 2G alternators aren't great, there is an issue somewhere when a new alternator can't provide more than 12.9 volts.
Rod
get a multimeter and check resistances. visual inspection wont always cut it. ive seen wires break and corrode inside the insulation, everything looks ok, but it isnt.
Is there any non-stock electrical stuff in the car?
Have you tried a different battery?
then the purpose for my putting it up was achieved. You got the point and your using good judgement. I have never forgotten that thread nor did we ever get to the bottom of it. Many unclear responses and vague explainations put this to an unsolved mystery status.
UMMMMMMM,,you did,you put up 3g upgrade not alternator upgrade!!!!
I did upgrade my wiring as it is a MUST do.
Possibly the main black orange wire off your alternator is corroded somewhere in the wire.
When doing the alternator upgade be it 3 or 6g you must replace that wire with a minimum 6 gauge(i used dual 4 guage,one to the battery and the other to the cars harness being a TC)or the fire thread will result again(yes i know he changed the wire).
What is the battery voltage with the car off?
It sounds like a problem in the Key-On circuit. I would advise checking your fuses to see if there is a 30 amp where a 5 amp should be.
If I had to do it. I would probably pull all the fuses except for the computer. Start the car, if the alternator is still pulling massive current, you know the problem is before the fuse panel.
Thanks for the suggestions y'all. Gonna check them all out after work.
I did have a chance to look through the EVTM, and noticed that the black/orange wires run through the Ammeter, same as they did on old Dodges. Since my ammeter doesn't work, I'm wondering if the link wire that bypasses the ammeter is also hooped? I'm going to go on a hunt for it anyway.
Today at lunch I'm running a pair of 6 gauge wires from the black/orange wires over to the starter solenoid. We'll see if we finally get some charging without destroying the alternator.
Now I've got what may be a dumb question. Why is it no-one has bothered to do a Delco conversion? Much better alternators than the 3Gs that you guys are all over.
I checked one of our 100A 10S framed Delcos and they'd be a great fit. All that would be needed is a spacer on the bottom mount and it would fit right up. You can put a 3623 SE self exciting regulator in it, run a 4 gauge wire over to the starter solenoid. Hook the black/orange wires up to the hot lead coming from the alternator, eliminate the other three plug in leads as the alternator is self exciting and internally regulated. We switch ag tractors from Motorolas/Nippondensos over to Delcos all the time. Much tougher, and much cheaper. You'd be hard pressed to convince me there is a better alternator.
Rod
That's why i said 6g,they are a much better alternator than the 3g.
You got me sold,, got a diagram to cross us over with?
lol, Well, don't buy what I'm sellin'. I tossed in a 3623 SE into an S-184-1 alternator we had in stock. Yanked the old 2G out, and slapped in the new Delco. And ran into a major catch: The body of a Delco, while its the exact same diameter as a 2G or 3G, doesn't have the "dent" on the side of the alternator where a regulator sits on a 2G. So the alternator body contacts the doggoned alternator mount. I'd have to lift the bottom mount up about an inch to get the body to clear.
So, long story short, switch to a 3G or other, lol. I'm probably still going to do it, but not until I get some other issues sorted out.
So I've still got a dead short somewhere. When I got done swearing over the Delco swap, I grabbed my continuity tester and just out of curiosity, tested continuity between the black/orange alt power wires and the body. Of course it started buzzing, so I've got a dead short somewhere, and it must be on an unprotected circuit, as I don't have any fuses blown. There are only four things not functioning properly in the car:
1) brake booster
2) ABS
3) electric fans
4) ammeter
I pulled the dash tonight and unplugged the wiring harness into the back of the gauge cluster. My short didn't go away, so apparently its not like the old Dodge trucks of yesteryear (the ammeters would burn out and the alternator would quite charging).
I see from the EVTM that the black/orange wire splits into the ABS power leads by the starter relay, so I guess I'll start there tomorrow.
On a side note, has anyone found a decent power distribution centre to replace the dog's breakfast of fusible links and splices? Whoever designed that whole mess under the starter relay really needed to find another job, lol.
Any major differences between the 3g and 6g installation-wise?
suposedly the 3-g and the 6g wire together the same. The 6g is smaller. That is the only difference I can really find. The 3g you can just order for a 95 mustang gt.
The 6g is lighter,has less rotating mass,has much better heat dissapation and has a more stable charging wave.
As for install differences,no stator wire to connect.
Just run your battery wire as you would for the 3g, cut off the old 2g/3g connector and solder in the new 2 pin 6g connector.
In fact if memory serves i think the wiring colors are even the same for the 2 pin.
You can go into any parts store and order a 6g for a 2.3/5.0L as well, i believe the vehicle was an 03-04 mustang 3.8L(not 100% sure on that, but it is a stock application ford alternator).
Hmm...Good to know. Thank you.
Don't sweat the ammeter. They really don't do anything. I've had two turbo coupes, and a few of my buddies have them, and they don't do anything. I think they came from the factory not serving any purpose.
Mine moves about 1/4" when i have stereo pumpin so they do work.
You just need to put some serious draw to them.
The stock electric system won't.
So it basically works like the stock oil gauge then? LOL.
I need to get more sleep. It dawned on me that of course I'd have continuity from the alternator power wires to the body: Anything with constant power like a clock will complete the circuit. :(
Rod8
This brings up something odd I noticed about my car. When my temperature rises, so does my oil pressure. Working kinda bass-ackwards, isn't it?
That's due to the internal voltage regulator or your cluster or ivr for short.
When the ivr starts to wear out it will make the gauges rise or fall more than normal.
The reason I ask about the battery voltage with the car off is, I thought you may have an easy starting car that will start on 10v.
If so a shorted battery cell may be putting extra load on the alternator.
The yellow shunt wire across the ammeter carries the bulk of the current. Only a tiny portion of the current flows through the ammeter.
That must an antique Dodge you are talking about. Back to the 6v days.
The shunt is in the cable harness near the alternator.
Does the BK/O wire on the alternator get hot?
You say you don't have a battery drain with the car off. If you turn the ignition to run without starting does the does the battery voltage hold up?
Does this overload condition only happen if the car is running?
Got the dirty bugger! At least I think so :)
Turned out to be the ABS system. The ABS system has never worked since I bought the car, so tonight I got torqued off and clipped the tan/red and tan/yellow ABS power wires to completely eliminate the system. Well I got torqued off after trying to get into the trunk to unplug the ABS control module. Just too doggoned big to fit back there.
For the first time since I've started the whole alternator replacement thing, I had a solid 14.4-14.5 at the battery at idle. When I turned everything on (lights, fan, etc), voltage dropped to 13.4 but stayed right there versus slowly dropping to 11.4 like it used to. I'm going to load test it tomorrow as I may have burnt some of the windings out on the new one already. Alternator gets warm, but not smoking hot like it used to.
When I get around to fully restoring the car, I'll re-hook and figure out just what exactly is wrong with the ABS system. I've had ABS relays and control modules go bad on other vehicles, but never had one that would dead short the charging system. Very odd.
So thank you all very much for the help. It was much appreciated, and I will be doing the 3G (or maybe the 6G) conversion soon, after I make sure I've got my issues taken care of.
Rod
Well I suppose it may be antique to some of young fellas, but this goes back to the 60s and 12 volt systems.
Rod
Well, back to the drawing board. Had to re-hook the ABS wires as they also control the brake boost. But now I think I'm seeing a pattern, especially since I saw some harebrained wiring the previous owner had done.
When I fire up the car, brake booster completely drained, the alternator charges normally. Once the brakes come up, the charge drops rapidly. This brings us to the harebrained wiring I saw. Apparently the high/low pressure switch must have quit working, so the previous owner direct wired the booster.
Sooo, current theory is once the booster comes up to max pressure, the little electric motor on the hydraulic booster starts drawing a pile of current, pulling down the 2G alternator. Any comments on the theory? Any idea how much current that hydraulic booster is supposed to pull?
Rod
I like the theory.
Not a clue on current, but I'd think less than 20A(motor isn't very large)... The motor is controlled by a relay(and the pressure switch) and should only run on start up, after using brakes, or once every 15 minutes or so to keep pressure up in the system... The relay is the front one of the pair that are located on the firewall near the ABS M/C assembly, it's a common problem...
NOTE Relay normally sticks causing the pump to run continually, even with switch off, I assume yours should be working or maybe the PO has it bypassed...
Both radiator fans running, heater blower on max, and the headlights on, will pull close to what a 2G is rated for... If you have some thumpin audio gear no wonder it keeps failing... BTWThe 88TC used a Hitachi 85A alternator because the Ford isn't up to the task... I don't think those swap direct to the '87 without some rewiring... Go with the 130A 3G, thats what I installed on mine...
You should probably feel around the bottom of the steering column for heat, too. I've seen the ignition switches in these cars short to ground through the grease inside 'em - the grease builds up copper filings and becomes a conductor. In fact I had one get so hot it melted the aluminum body of the switch (that was in my '87 Sport). Also had one catch fire ('91 T-Bird).