I've been in touch with a converter guy who comes highly recommended by the "Click Click Racing" forum guys. I told him about the set-up I plan to run in my T-Bird (basically a GT-40 engine with a TFS "stage 1" cam, AOD & 3.73's out back) and he's recommending I don't have him build a ($525) 9.5", 3000 stall, lock-up converter for me. He's recommending I have him build an ($175) 11", 2400 stall, non-lock-up converter instead. The purpose of the conservative stall is obviously to help minimize slippage at cruise speeds. I know that when it comes to a street car, "less is more" is generally a good rule to live by, but I've got doubts about how happy I'd be with that converter.
I've been spending a lot of time over on "Click Click Racing's" AOD forum and the overwhelming consensus in that forum, is that non lock-up converters are the way to go with performance street cars like mine. Every time you turn around, one of those guys is talking about how they switched from using a lock-up TC, to using a non locker and how they'd never go back to a locker.
One can't argue the loss of gas mileage you experience if you use a non-locker, but since this car isn't a daily driver, I have to admit, I'm seriously considering going with a non-locker.
The two main reasons given over there for why they are so much happier after making the switch, are they hated the feeling of the 2-3 shift (and the accompanying RPM drop) and how much stronger their trannies are now that the TC doesn't lock up. Almost all of them say they absolutely LOVE the way the non-lockers feel.
If I do go with a non locker, I'm pretty sure I'll go with more than 2400 stall. That's not much higher than stock. I'd probably go with a 2800 stall instead. That's a little conservative considering my combo compared to the kind of stall I'd run with a lock-up TC, but to paraphrase Tom, I'm sure it would still put a big smile on my face!
There is a guy by me who builds AODs (and will more than likely build mine) for strip and street strip performance. His stuff is better than Lentechs and he will not use lock-ups on any AOD he sells. He says that he just can't make a lock up strong enough to be as reliable (ie no warranty work) as he can a non lock up. When my AOD is rebuilt it will probably have a 2600 rpm non lock up in it.
Get a 4r70w and have the best of both worlds high stall and lockup on demand. I wish I would have gone that way because by the time you buy a real decent valve body, a converter, and a one piece input shaft you could put a 4r70w in with a baumann electronic controller. Oh and the 4r70w has a much better 1st and 2nd gear 2.84 vs 2.40 and 1.55 vs 1.47.
id go with a 2800 rpm flash, non lock up
well, actually id go with a stick....just sayin'
I already have an AOD. I'm gonna stay with it.
Wouldn't a TC that flashes at 2800 stall around 3200?
Well if you're not worried about economy and you want to keep your aod just throw a non lockup converter in somewhere around 2800-3000 , you might just want to go 3000 in case you ever upgrade your setup later. You've got the right idea going non-lockup the only other thing you may want to consider is a 1 piece input shaft, but you may be able to get away without one. Just make sure to spend the money on a good torque converter from a reputable brand. (IE not B&M)
It sounds like he's the real deal. I pretty sure we'll be in the same neighborhood stall wise when all is said and done.
Good advice there. I'm going with a Dirty Dog converter. Alan's seems to be a great guy to deal with.
Yeah I was going to get the 2400 non-lockup stall from DD performance as well.....until I got enough money to go to a T5 :D . If you're going to spend $400 or so just on a TC (not counting the numerous other things you should get along with it), have you considered just swapping to a T5?
I never even considered going to a T5. I'm an automatic fanatic. When I was younger I liked sticks, but now it's automatics all the way for me.
X2
BTW... Vic you'll probably have a 200-300 rpm increase at highway speeds with the non lockup...
Since I'd be running below stall RPM's I knew I'd be slipping with a non direct-drive converter. I'm OK with the drop in mileage. I'd be happy with the trade-off.
I think your right about the increase in rpm,I was higher than anyone else in the other post at 70.also the non lockup will be a 1 piece input shaft.
Actually, you don't have to convert to a 1-piece shaft to get rid of direct-drive. If you have a converter made up, like I'm going to do, your builder can remove the direct-drive assembly from the converter. That way the converter will still work with your split input shaft. You remove a lot of weight from the converter by sping the direct-drive assembly like that.
Actually, you don't have to convert to a 1-piece input shaft to get rid of direct-drive. If you have a converter made up, like I'm going to do, your builder can remove the direct-drive assembly from the converter. That way the converter will still work with your split input shaft. You remove a lot of weight from the converter by sping the direct-drive assembly like that.
But don't that still make it the weak link?
No. The reason why inner input shafts break so frequently on direct-drive AOD's is because the converter can't slip when the tranny is under power and shifted into 3rd, or 4th gear. When you run a non direct-drive converter in an AOD, the converter is able to slip when the tranny is shifted into 3rd, or 4th gear under power. Since the converter is able to slip, it takes away the big shock of the gear change. That's why inner input shafts live so much longer when a non direct-drive converter is used.
It sounds to easy,If that was the case everyone would just change converters.I want to talk to my trans guy and see what he thinks.I'm just more curious now.
That's how it is. If you're running a high-horsepower car, you should go with a 1-piece input shaft, but for the cars I'm seeing around this forum, a split-shaft would still be ok. If you're running over 450 hp, you should definitely be running a 1-piece shaft.
Take a stick that's 1" in diameter and 5 feet long and swing it into a pole. It's no surprise when the stick breaks. The stick will break because the pole was immoble. Now. If you take the same 1", by 5 foot long stick and swing it into a rope that's hung vertically, you know the stick won't break. The stick obviously won't break because of the rope giving in when the stick hits it.
The same principles apply to that inner input shaft.
The non direct-drive converter gives when the tranny is shiznited into 3rd gear under WOT. A direct-drive converter won't give under this senario.
Take a stick that's 1" in diameter and 5 feet long and swing it into a pole. It's no surprise when the stick breaks. The stick will break because the pole was immoble. Now. If you take the same 1", by 5 foot long stick and swing it into a rope that's hung vertically, you know the stick won't break. The stick obviously won't break because of the rope giving in when the stick hits it.
The same principles apply to that inner input shaft.
The non direct-drive converter gives when the tranny is shiznited into 3rd gear under WOT. A direct-drive converter won't give under this senario.
Ok,thats all good,what if the pressure on the TV is to high.
It's all up in the air,It's an AOD,They are not the best trans.
The insides are week.
I'm done with this post for now!
One more thing I want to add is that a very reputable AOD builder Dan, who goes by the screen name "Silverfox" in forums like "Click Click Racing" claims that by doing nothing more than switching to a non direct-drive, or "non lock-up" converter, you double the strength of your AOD. I see even really knowledgeable AOD guys seeking Dan's opinion and input on AOD's.
Sorry for answering the question you asked. :giggle:
Well than jump on it. Your mind is already set.
I was going to suggest talking to Dan...aka Silverfox...when it comes to AOD's he IS the guy to trust....make sure you run plenty of trans cooler with a non-lock convertor.
Definitely. A B&M "Super Cooler" is in my future for sure. :D