I photoshopped the below wheels on my car and I like the way they look (ARE Rebel):
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/coug_rebel.jpg)
So I went to order them from Summit - they only had 3. Worst part? They are discontinued in 4-lug and I can't find a 4th anywhere :mad:
This was the only 4-lug wheel I liked. It appears that I need to go to 5-lug for choices.
Looks like the consensus to convert to 5-lug is:
Front: OEM: MKVII/'84-'86 SVO rotors. Performance: Powerslot 8118 or plug, drill & restud my almost new slotted & dimpled rotors
Rear: Drill & restud 31 spline axles, redrill rotors.
Moser will do all the mods. Does this plan seem reasonable? Does anyone offer TC rotors that can be drilled for 5-lug when ordering?
I mentioned this in another thread and this is my plan, Sn95 Mustangs (94-98) have the best braking system short of Brembo that will work on our cars.
Find the spindles, rotors, calipers, caliper brackets, and flex lines from a 94-98 V6 car. You will need to get an adapter on the passenger side hard line to fit the SN95 flex line. 96-98 V8 cars had +6mm of offset on the spindles and will usually work well on fox cars. Using the Sn95 stuff will allow you to upgrade to Cobra 13" brakes in the future with ease.
For the rear, find a V6 7.5" rear complete with brakes. Take the calipers, claiper brackets, anti-moan brackets, and axles from it and s the housing.
You may want to grab the booster, prop valve, e-brake cables, and the master cylinder from the same car.
EDIT- I just saw you have the TC rear with discs already. Just grab the axles and rotors from the Mustang and drop them in.
the wheels look go in the picture hoodluck with the project.
Considering the work you put into the front spindles and the parts you have in the rear I would say that's good game plan. Although I would prolly try to sell the Powerslot 4-Lug rotors and buy some 5-Lug versions. Is Moser doing those mods as well? I guess that's pretty much up to you then.
I do remember someone over on NATO using some Mazda rotors for 5-Lug TC rear. I'll see if I can find the thread...
FOUND IT! :D
http://natomessageboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=019588#000002
BTW, I like those wheels on your Cat.
I thought about selling the old front rotors - I wonder what the resale value is on used rotors?
Great find on the Mazda rotors! That looks simple enough. I also did some research and found a place selling rotors drilled for 4 & 5 lug
(http://discbrakesrus.com/make/ford/rightrearslotted540366.jpg)
they say '79-'93, but I am pretty sure this assumes conversion to TC brakes as they are vented and 10.25" diameter. Oh, here is the link http://discbrakesrus.com/make/ford/brakerotorsrear.htm
wow, those look kind of trippy...
I wonder if the offset lug stud holes would cause a noticeable vibration? (not really a concern I suppose, just idle curiousity ;))
The best way to convert to 5 lug in the frot is SN95 spindles. it really opens up your options of what to use for a 5 lug wheel. If you choose the early lincoln rotors, you will have clearance problems with center caps.
Actually, the 99+ (V6/GT) brakes are superior to the 94-98 brakes, due to the better calipers
99-04 - Aluminum
94-98 - Steel
99-04 - Twin piston
94-98 - Single piston
IMO, if you go to V6/GT brakes - go directly to 99+ and get the best bang for you buck.
Explain the clearance issues - any particular wheels that have known issues with center cap interference? I just machined the Fox spindles & installed with new "3075-D" Cobra A-arms & new tie rods & new rotors. Isn't there an issue with tie-rod length with SN95 spindles IIRC? If the spindles kick the wheels out some and the rotors also add to the offset, what is the new offset required with an SN95 setup? You're throwing a major mathematical monkey wrench into the hours and hours of research I've done looking into 4 & 5 lug rims with ~25mm offset.
If the center cap is an issue you may be able to dimple (read: flatten) the dust cap and maybe modify the center cap itself to get it to fit. Cobra Rs, Mach 1 and Bullitt Wheels all have that issue. Cougarman has a remedy as well to get that style wheel to fit Mark VII/SVO style rotors. Maybe he will chime in.
+1 - 11-inch PBRs are awesome. I was skeptical at first but no more. Good "throw an unruly passenger through the windshield" brakes. :D
Been there, done that with the MKVII rotors and spindles. It kinda sucks too. The bearing caps stick out to far :mad:
I usually suggest the 94-98 brakes because of the increased offset of the 99+ spindles. It can cause some issues when used on Fox Mustangs or 83-86 Birds and Cats. 87-88 Might not have the same problems.
Then use the early spindles with the later brakes....
Then you must grind on the spindles to clear the caliper bracket, as there are some minor differences between the 94-98 style and 99+. This wouldn't be an issue for anyone who had the tools to grind, but for those with basic tools its much easier just to bolt up, bleed, and go.
EDIT- IMO this is the best site for Fox brake upgrades, skip the ads. http://sn95brakes.cjb.net/
I'm aware of the differences.
Takes all of 5 minutes....
It's also something that can be done without having the car all in pieces. It can be done before you even get ready to install.
If I didn't have the tools on hand, I sure as hell would find some way to grind off the little bit that needed to be done and use the good calipers instead of using the older stuff. I'd use a file if I had to even.
Again, I stand by my statement...older spindles (94-95 are "better" for the Foxes in general) with the newer calipers.
the 1998 or 1999 Cobra wheel or the 17" 'Split 5-Spoke' wheel will not work because the dust cap sticks out too far. I would just do the entire spindle swap because it gives the car better steering geometry.
I like what the other guy is saying though about the 99-up calipers though, they might work better.
A grinder is what? $20. If someone can't afford that then prolly shouldn't be doing a SN-95 front brake swap eh? :)
When's the last time you took apart the front brakes with "basic tools"? I attempted it once or twice... ended up with a bunch of busted sockets. lol.
And for the record my 96-98 SN-95 spindles required grinding for the PBR dual piston calipers.
True a grinder is cheap, but the thought of grinding on newly purchased usually not cheap spindles might not sound like fun to some.
How do you break sockets while working on the brakes?
Yup, 94-98 spindles will need to be ground for 99+ caliper bracket clearance.
The OP might not be, thats why I posted.
Cheap s...just buy the 13" upgrade. No grinding of the spindles necessary. :evilgrin:
Ive never had problems breaking tools on front breaks....What kind of sockets are you using that break that easy??? get some craftsman stuff...or better yet, snap-on.
Exactly what I was thinking.
I just finished the 11" brake upgrade and new control arms a few weeks ago - this discussion is getting to a place where I didn't want to go - ed wheels. I'm also a bit reticent about not being able to show the car as a 20th any more as the gold turbines are part of the deal. I smacked my head off the visor just for fun yesterday, I'm not sure how much better the brakes need to be! OTOH, if the wheels don't fit, then you must give me shiznit. I only care if the wheels above fit actually.
Craftsman - On the struts. Yes I used penetrating oil. They are pretty easy to break (especially the newer stuff). If it wasn't for the return policy I'd prolly go with something else. And least for the big stuff.
I know you just finished the upgrade which is why I didn't bring up any of the SN-95 stuff. I am not aware of anyone running those wheels period let alone on Fox Brakes 5-Lug. But IMO if the 4-Lug centers will fit (do they fit???) without issue I don't see why 5-Lug versions wouldn't.
Check corral.
jus curious. have you called the wheel manufacture to see if they can locate a 4th wheel?
Good call - I've emailed all the known vendors and emailed the manufacturer directly, but I will be calling them today or tomorrow as 90% of my emails are ignored by companies I send them to. They really need to remove the "Contact Us" sections as all it does is make me angry at the company for not answering my questions.
I'm assuming you are wanting the Chrome Rebel, part # 699-7934.
I called American Racing and they said they have two left. One in their Charlotte warehouse and one in a warehouse in California.
Seeing that the 4-lug version of that wheel has not been in American's catalog since 2004 and is being discounted by Summit, make sure that they will take them back if for some reason you aren't satisfied. It's quite possible that one of the three Summit has or one of the two left in American's system could arrive with a scratch or two on them especially if they have been sitting in a warehouse for nearly 4 years.
Order the 4th wheel from a local American Racing dealer to get your set of 4.
Brent
:cougarsmily:
Yeah, than Snap-on FTW.
cant go wrong with good tools!!!!!:hick:
Wow - you are amazing. Looks like I need to make some calls tomorrow and make a decision! Thanks a lot!
Happy to help. :)
That is what this board is all about right?
Just be prepared to pay more that what Summit is charging you for the 3 they have in stock. They are discounting them heavily to get a discontinued wheel out of their inventory.
There is a good possibility that whoever you get the 4th wheel from is going to have to pay more for it from American plus there could be applicable freight charges involved too.
Personally, if it was me, and the price was right, I would buy all 5 so that I have a spare just in case something were ever happen. ;)
Good luck!
Brent
:cougarsmily:
exactly what i was thinkin as well. :hick:
Got all 5 - the price was fine from the AR dealer too so I'm happy and it's worth the gamble. I may have to use a 5/16" spacer on the front so that would help alleviate a possible hub cover to center cap interference issue (& hitting strut obviously). I ordered 17" drag radials for the back - I almost wiped out passing a soccer MILF in a mini-van the other day as the tires started spinning @ 60 MPH! The wheels will probably look py on the car - lol!
wicked! now you can keep all your built up 4lug brake stuffs, and still run your gold turbines if you want.
Yes, I'm kind of relieved. I was obsessing a little over the 6" backspacing, but really since the 25mm offset is the same as stock, so long as I use similar section width tires, all should be fine. I've already used 275/50/15 drag radials that have about a 11.1" section width on 8" 25mm offset rims in the rear so the 295/24/17 drag radials on a 9" rim should be about 11.2" section width - nearly the same. On the front I am thinking of using a 235/45/17 to gain a little on the width and height, but I've read that 245/45/17 might look/fit better.
Any opinions on this?
YIKES!!
Marginal fit!
Here is the side view;
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1283.jpg)
Here is how far the rim sticks out!
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1280.jpg)
Here is top view:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1282.jpg)
There is 1/4" clearance to strut which is fine, more than that for the tire section width (3/8"?). Can turn the wheel stop to stop without issue due to Cobra "D" arms in front. Hub is an issue and will need my "custom" touch to fit - oh, well.
Should I even bother to mount tires as I am slightly illegal? Should I go with 235 or 245 cross-section - I think either will fit but the 245 may hide the edge view of the rim better.
Any opinions out there?
What size wheels are these?
I can't see the pictures, since IT blocks all the photobucket domain (rendering most pictures on this forum useless).
They are 17 x 9 with 25mm offset. They are the right offset but the rim sticks out a little more than the old 225 tires as they were 9.625" cross-section (just measured) and the rim is 10". I can use a tire up to about 10.4" max cross-section, but I would prefer 10.3" or under. Any help appreciated as I am looking at getting some tires!
Put a tire on it then look at it,i did the same with my 18x9s and 10s and they didn't look like they would fit but they fit perfect.
It's very misleading with just the rim.
I am just concerned about the tire hitting the surround at the top of the strut. I could trim that a bit as it is plastic - I just was wondering if a 245 would have wider than a 10.3" section on a 9" rim. Based on some calcs I did it should be fine (~10.1"), but I just want some reassurance before I have a tire mounted. The 235 would give me more clearance from hitting the fender (as I am lowered), but I have heard people say they look too narrow on a 9" rim. Still looking for tires :D
I would suggest going to each tires website that you are interested in and getting an actual section width from there. Most have a chart. From past experience, I don't like a 235 on a 9".
Jim
Yeah, I've done more research and there's no way I'm going with a 235 on a 9" rim.
It looks like a 255/40/17 will fit and look good at the same time. The 0.3" smaller radius (than stock 15" tires) will help keep the tire off the fender when driving over the bridge construction around here too. Since the 255 is based on a wider fitting rim (8.5"), it will only be a little wider in the section (~10.25") but will look a lot better.
Edit: you were right Jim, the Falken FK-452 that I want has a 10.3" section width listed for the 255/40/17 using a 9"!! measuring rim on Falken's web site. This is a perfect fit for this application. I will be ordering these tires now as NTB didn't have them in stock even though their web site said they had a set at my local store. I'm getting psyched.
Now to do something cool for the center-caps on the front. I think a little boring and grinding are in order :D
Well, the 255's were hard to find and I realized that the tread would stick out quite a bit (tread width is 3/4" wider that 245/45) so I went with the 245/45/17's. They don't seem to stick out much, but they really rub the fender too easy - I'm really bummed.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1288.jpg)
Worst picture ever:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1289.jpg)
I know my camber appears to be the wrong direction so that may be something to look into. I am a bit annoyed right now :(
Nothing worse than getting done a project and being bummed about it. Where is it rubbing?
Jim
If I take a slight right hand turn and there is uneveness to the road, it ****ing rubs. The marks on the tire and sound location say it's just simply hitting the fender. This is the famous drivers side tilt coming into full play here - passenger side - no rubbing.) My head is about to explode! The damed tires are hardly any bigger than the 225/60/15's I had on there (in theory), but they look quite a bit bigger side-by-side (can tread wear make the old tires look that much smaller?)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1285.jpg)
The camber adjustment is on the most outward rivet, but it does appear that I already have a slight amount of negative camber. How much negative camber will those two holes give me? It will have to help keep the tire off the fender somewhat. ARRGGHH!! :(:(:(
I don't know much about your car, but if it's not rubbing too awful much maybe a stiffer front spring would keep it under control. I am assuming your front sway bar is still on?
These are 600lb/in Mach 1 springs that I just installed a couple of months ago. The Mach 1 springs lowered the car at the same time (another thread), but I rarely had rubbing with the 225/60/15's that theoretically have the same diameter and tread width - only on bridge construction that would get any car that was lowered. I removed the sway bar for drag-racing and never reinstalled it.
roll the fender lip up. assuming the fenders are simliar to my mark ones, it should be easy to roll them
I thought you put Fox arms on there...
I could have told you it wouldn't fit w/o rolling the fenders. :hick:
How does the inner fender liner mount when you roll the metal lip?
I may just go smaller in diameter - 245/40/17 (24.7")or 235/40/17 (24.4") - these won't hit and won't look so bad since the car is lowered. I may have to take advantage of the 30 day free test drive :D
Hah - thanks :P
I have 2k03 Cobra Arms.
my inner fender and my fender dont connect up there. Didnt know if the birds were diff. I guess so.
I'm not sure either - I've just felt in there with my fingers - feels like there is a transition from the metal to the plastic in there...
i dont think it would be hard to just fold it up a little? but I dont know for sure someone has to.
Well, if I remove the wheel and inner fender, I can use the forming tool I used for the body work to bend it up. Combined with adding more negative camber I may be able to deal with it.
worth a try
My '87, with 17x8 +30mm offset wheels and 225/45/17 tires is at the ragged edge of rubbing. (-5/8 degree camber)
A 17x9 +25mm wheel puts the outboard edge .7" further out.
It'll be interesting to see how you solve this problem. I might just yet get a set of '03 Cobras.
Watch out for paint chipping if you roll the fenders.
The math wasn't that bad.
225/60/15 on a 7" rim. 9.7" section width, 8.5" tread width
245/45/17 on a 9" rim. 10" section width, 8.5" tread width
With the same offset as stock (25mm), most of the added width is indeed at the rim & partially on the section width. I think part of the problem is that the old tires are about 25.1" diameter now after all these years and the new tires are right at 25.7" brand new. Also, the transition to the sidewall is wider on the new tires and I think it is actually this area that ishiznitting as opposed to the tread itself that hit with the old tires (and rarely). This is why I am considering shorter tires - I don't care if the sidewall is shorter since the car is lowered.
?
What wheels/tires did you have beforehand?
Stock gold turbines w/Pep Boys Ultra Z specials - lol.
I was comparing actual measurements from the old tire as mounted to the advertised specs compensated for the tires installed on a 9" rim. The biggest issue is the larger diameter of the new tires compared to the old ones and the width at the transition from the tread to the sidewall.
There are 225/60/15's that are advertised with 8.9" tread width and 245/45/17's that are advertised with 8.4" tread width, so there is a lot of variation out there in specs & measurement techniques. The tread itself (part that actually touches the ground) seems to be a tiny bit farther in actually.
Stock
14x5.5s have a +1.12" offset (27.4mm) BS=4.37" FS=2.13"
15x7.0s have a +0.88" offset (22.4mm) BS=4.88" FS=3.12"
17x8.0s have a +1.18" offset (30.0mm) BS=5.68" FS=3.32"
17x9.0s have a +0.98" offset (25.0mm) BS=5.98" FS=4.02"
This is assuming the wheel is actually 1" wider than the advertised width.
Factory offsets come from my '85 Helm manual.
In my current case (described earlier), going to 9" wheels would push it out .7" (4.02-3.32)=.7
Yeah, that's about right. Turbines have a 4.95" backspace (verified just last week) which is about 24mm offset assuming an 8" wide lip to lip wheel - I just round off to 5". The new wheels have a 6" backspace and 25mm offset so I expected the rim lip to be 1" farthur out. It's close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades. All I care about is that the center point is approximately the same. They fit perfectly as a rim lip 1/4" from the strut is about as close as you want to go! I suppose I could have a bit more as I always push the top of the spindle in as far as possible before tightening up the strut bolts (for obvious reasons). Everything is on target as far as tread edge location WRT the fender lip - like I said, the actual dirty part of the tread is slightly more inboard with these new tires/rims.
And yes, you having the 30mm offset are in good shape so long as you can resist upgrading :D
I assume that camber is adjusted (sans C-C plate) by drilling out the rivet and loosening the three bolts, then prying with a piece of wood to move the plate? There's no reason to lift the car or remove the wheel right? I am going to do the camber thing as I liked when I had a lot of negative camber previously (must have been worn ball-joints as it went away when I installed the 2k03 Cobra arms.) I may look at the lip after that. If that doesn't do it, I am considering the 235/45/17's to help shrink down the tire a bit. Thanks for all the suggestions people - it's nice not to have to suffer all alone :hick:
Darn, I already have 1 deg of negative camber as it sits :(
I can swap these out for 235/45/17 which are 0.2" narrower and 25.3" tall vs. 25.7" tall or...
245/40/17 which is 1" shorter - 24.6" versus 25.7"
...or I could add a 1/4" spacer under the spring (get me 1/2" height) & mess with the lip (I don't see much to gain here with the inner fender there.)
Any opinions here?
...as I continue the conversation with myself, I ordered the 1/4" spring spacers today. I figured instead of making the sidewalls shorter, I'd just raise the fender the same amount (1/2"). Can't wait to install the spacer on the drivers side and go for a ride!
In the back, I have long studs for the stupid Weld wheels. Do these long lugs look good or stupid? They stick out the same distance as the hub cap.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1291.jpg)
Looks fine to me?
Not to hi-jack your thread (you're doing a kick ass job btw:D ) but since you've done some research on this I'll ask ya. Do you think these would fit my T-bird: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=5088 without having them hit the fender or having to roll the lip? They are 17x8 wheels. Also any idea as to what tire to run? Thanks and sorry again for the hi-jack :hick:
Well, I'm going to defaut to Jeremy's comments as he has 8" wheels in the front.
With only 15mm offset, you are pushing the tread about 7-10mm or ~0.3 - 0.4" toward the fender lip This could easily get you into trouble if you use a wide tire &/or the car is lowered. This calculator is a fun way to compare tire sizes on old versus new rims http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp?action=submit . As I am finding out, it is difficult to find a narrow enough tire when you grow the diameter and width of the rim - the choices are few. Also read both pages here http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html though some of the info is tailored to FWD european cars. Some good info here on how much the section width will change from the "measuring rim" that the tires advertised width is based on compared to the actual rim width you are using http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tirespecskey.jsp . As far as which tire to run? You can compare tires on the 1010 site above. Also, the "tyre bible" will let you compare tires & shows how the new tires fits compared to the old tire (side view). Good luck!
Edit: oh, and do a few searches here: http://www.corral.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=307 - huge volume of people pass through there who have tried all sorts of wheel/tire combinations.
I have some reading to do. Thanks :D