Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Haystack on February 02, 2005, 03:36:54 AM

Title: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 02, 2005, 03:36:54 AM
I am to lazy to go back a page and pull back up the good gas and good spark thingy. Okay I have broken down and decided to tell you everything that I did. My car ran ultra rich because my map sensor didnt have the vacum line connected.

I recentally had to change out a vacum hose on my map sensor that went to the underside of my upper intake. I had to take it off, I guess my hands are too big to fit in there. So I put it back together and it still wont start. I have been having issues with my battery, but that is fixed now. I dont have any way to check if I have good spark, But I do have spark. I know that I am getting gas. I have checked my spark plugs and they all look good. My wires are practically new. I tried starting fluid with no change. I unplugged the map sensor vacume line thinking that might be why, but no change. I unpluged the battery for a long time to clear it out but no change. could there be a bad wire or something just unplugged? I need this car on the road, I hate getting up for the bus at 5:30 am and then not starting school until 9:30. all that I can do is sit on the floor at the school until school starts.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 03, 2005, 12:31:27 AM
I really need this car, any suggestion of what to check would be cool
Title: Re: no start
Post by: mjbtbrd on February 03, 2005, 01:45:46 AM
try pulling the spout connector then starting it

run codes  paper clip method will work if you got a CEL

after that it is: test fuel pressure ..... check injector  for pulse....  check spark .  Unfortunately  the things needed to test fuel and spark you probably don't have available
Title: Re: no start
Post by: CougarSE on February 03, 2005, 01:47:21 AM
Well first take the ignition module off and take it to your local AutoZone and have them test it.  These can cause all kinds of problems.  What makes you think you have spark?  Does the car spit and sputter or does it just crank?  Pull the cap of the distributer and make sure the button in the center is still there and not broken away.  I've seen this cause cars not to run before.  What makes you think you are getting gas.  If you turn the key on do you hear the fuel pump kick on for two seconds and stop?  Have you tested for fuel pressure on the rail?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 03, 2005, 11:50:48 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
Well first take the ignition module off and take it to your local AutoZone and have them test it.  These can cause all kinds of problems.  What makes you think you have spark?  Does the car spit and sputter or does it just crank?  Pull the cap of the distributer and make sure the button in the center is still there and not broken away.  I've seen this cause cars not to run before.  What makes you think you are getting gas.  If you turn the key on do you hear the fuel pump kick on for two seconds and stop?  Have you tested for fuel pressure on the rail?


its sefi, it will crank but it dosent spit ot anything, it dosent even try. I only know I have spark because I put a timing light on the wires, just to make sure that I was getting spark. The distributor is new. I know that I am getting gas because I can smell it and I have pulled out a spark plug after with gas on it. Also starting fluid dosent seem to change anthing. I dont have anything to test fuel pressure right now. I think that it has more to do with bad spark or ignition. Thanks for the reply's
Title: Re: no start
Post by: mjbtbrd on February 03, 2005, 12:11:08 PM
based on kinda speculative diagnosis if you can smell gas lets eliminate it.  Could very well be tfi.  New dist kinda eliminates stator.

did you pull codes?  try it without the SPOUT in place?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 03, 2005, 12:19:32 PM
It seems to be spark related, because the starting fluid should have made it at least sputter if there was spark. Could very well be the tfi. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: softtouch on February 03, 2005, 05:33:58 PM
Has it run since you replaced the distributor? 180 degrees out?
Did you check the timing? Chain could have jumped over a tooth.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 04, 2005, 12:35:16 AM
I hope that it isnt the timing skipping a tooth, It might be because the car has almost 200,000 miles without a rebuild or anything. What is this spout thing that everyone is talking about? just a breif explanation would do. The distributor isnt brand new, by new I mean about a year.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: MexCougar on February 04, 2005, 12:51:35 AM
I don´t know what is the SPOUT, but since i have a electrical problem i do some research and find this diagram. I want to know what it´s that , too.....

 Maybe this help a little.....
(http://usuarios.lycos.es/racingtrykes/almacen/TFI-conn.png)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: MasterBlaster on February 04, 2005, 07:38:10 AM
Quote
What is this spout thing
SPark OUT.
With it plugged in, the computer controls and varies the timing.
With it unplugged, timing is locked at "base", whatever that may be on your particular engine. Usually 10deg BTDC, or wherever you have your distributor pointing.

Here's the jumper plug:
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 04, 2005, 04:59:11 PM
I will go ahead and try unplugging that, I went out to get the code reader out of my Dad's crown vic, but I broke off the key in the door after it unlocked, and then realized that the glove box is locked. You would think that taking out all of the screws at the bottom that hold the glove box in would pop it out.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 04, 2005, 05:43:18 PM
I pulled codes 21 23 24 82
this is what my booklet tells me that they are.
21 engine coolant tempature out of range or not at normal operating tempature or edis fault problems with crankshaft postion sensor
23 throttle position sensor signal voltage out of self test specification
24 air charge temperature sensor or vane air tempature signal voltage is out of specification. or not at normal levels or edis fault faulure in coil 1 primary curcuit
82 thermactor air bypass solenoid curcuit failure or elctrodrive fan curcuit failure or super charger bypass solenoid failure.
okay I think I can trow out code 21 because I dont had edis and my car wasent running(obviously) I could change out my trottle position sensor(code 23) what would I have to fix for code 24, and 82?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 04, 2005, 05:52:59 PM
okay now I know that I am not gettin g enough spark. The timing light is only lighting up like once every couple of seconds.(its on the coil wire)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: CougarSE on February 04, 2005, 09:40:46 PM
Unplugging the spout is like unplugging the vacume line back in the day....
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 06, 2005, 05:01:44 AM
So I pulled the spout connector thingy with no change, and I pulled codes off of both cougars, the one my dad drives didnt pull any codes, so I am assuming that the tps sensor is good. So I switched out the tps. Still no change. what else could it be?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 06, 2005, 09:12:24 AM
Have you tried changing the tfi module :dunno:
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 06, 2005, 06:35:08 PM
I was gonna do the tfi today. I couldnt find a good picture of one, I hoped to find one in my hays or chiltons. So could anyone (masterblaster) pull up a pick with it pointed out? Sorry for my inexperiance.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 06, 2005, 06:50:18 PM
Here ya go...
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 06, 2005, 07:36:43 PM
what would I use to get those screws out, It looks like its about 5mm but it looks like I will need a deep socket just to get it out?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 06, 2005, 07:41:17 PM
Autozone sells a small tool made just for that. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 06, 2005, 09:34:39 PM
I went there and tried to get one and they told me that they didnt have one. they told me just to get a deep socket of the right size. the problem is I dont know the right size because I cant get one to fit on to see if it fits.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: mjbtbrd on February 06, 2005, 11:02:30 PM
Yea autozone  napa sears pep boys any part place should have a TFI wrench

pic of one here:  http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=12
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 06, 2005, 11:41:10 PM
thanks, I think I will go back after the shift change, or maybe tommarow after school
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 06, 2005, 11:48:26 PM
The tfi wrench looks like a socket with a  on the end to turn it. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: CougarSE on February 07, 2005, 05:25:01 AM
Go there and say hey **** nuts I know were its at, its in the tool isle on the top rack beside the Duralast tools in the OEM tools section.....  Atleast thats were its at at the store me and john work at
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 07, 2005, 10:52:06 AM
Here's a py pic of what the tool looks like. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 07, 2005, 11:08:42 AM
Yeah I think that I will come in again right after school. If I cant find it I will prolly make a bit of a stink. If it really just over on the shelf I will feel kinda dumb.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 07, 2005, 07:16:10 PM
stripped one of the "tools". What a peice of . I would have been happy with a thin walled deep socket. anyways I stripped the one, got a new one, and now I have to pull the distributor out to get the next one, on two cars. I was running around it a t-shirt last night, play on the computer for 2 hours just to get 1/2' of snow for me to work in today. Wow I love utah(as my license plate reads"greatest snow on earth")
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 08, 2005, 04:48:47 PM
well I pulled out the distributor, its the only way I could have gotten to the bottom screw on the tfi. Havent started it yet, I think I have the distributor in right, but I am not sure. Can some people throw out ways to check it?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 08, 2005, 05:06:45 PM
Just bring the motor up to tdc and install the distributor with the rotor pointing to number one. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 08, 2005, 06:08:26 PM
assuming that the tfi in may car is bad, and I switch it out to another car(one with the disributor still in it) and that car starts, does that mean that my tfi is still good?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 08, 2005, 06:34:30 PM
Yes. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 08, 2005, 06:55:24 PM
well then....my tfi is still good. any other suggestions? what would cause weak spark?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: cougarman on February 08, 2005, 07:10:19 PM
Is there any way you could swap distributors?? Just to see if your car would start. :)
Title: Re: no start
Post by: mjbtbrd on February 08, 2005, 08:45:26 PM
OK  use a test light on the coil -  if the test light flashes (reasonable rapidly) as the car cranks and you have no/poor spark then it suggests a coil issue . You can use a ohm meter on  the coil , primary resisitance should be below an ohm (i think)  and secondary should above 8000 ohms.  You can also check the coil wire resistance.  Only other idea the cap could be carbon tracked  causing cross fire, though this does not explain weak/no spark
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 09, 2005, 01:41:21 AM
so if I am not getting good spark try changing out disributors, and coils? My Dad's 1991 crown vic is sitting until it gets warm enough to rebuild it. It has a blown head gasket(hopefully) or a cracked engine block. So I can pull off pretty much whatever.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: mjbtbrd on February 09, 2005, 03:54:34 PM
See if the coil is even switching as described above no need to just keep trying parts.  If the coil is switching and you have no spark then yea it is most likely the coil or coil wire.  check also the connector where the module plugs into the stator, and the TFI harness connector.  Have you actually tried a spark tester to verify no spark?
Title: Re: no start
Post by: MexCougar on February 11, 2005, 12:32:51 AM
Hey Haystack...

 How is going the work with the car ? it can run again ? i hope that you can fix it.

  Mine is still dead...
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 11, 2005, 02:36:16 AM
mex, not as of yet, today it is gonna be 50 or so degrees so I am gonna double check my distributor, also I am gonna try some other igntion switches, and maybe switch out my coil/coil wire. I might nt get around to it till sunday however, I just learned that one of my best freinds is moving, from utah to Philly. So I might just party with him all weekend. But I plan on having my car running in the next week.
Title: Re: no start
Post by: Haystack on February 17, 2005, 06:56:43 PM
well nothing has changed as of yet, but I will be getting a job as soon as I turn 18(early march). So I will be working on my car alot more no matter what. I havent put the disributor back in yet, but I will probably after this weekend. Then I will start harassing you guys again ;) . I just wanna thank everyone who has helped me so far. it will also warm up alor(gonna be over 40) for the first time in about a month.