So I'm considering doing a HO swap or conversion this spring. Now before you go all nuts this is going to be a stock HO swap. The car is a cruiser and I want it to look pretty much stockish for shows but I want the extra power of the HO. I'm wondering what would be a better route to take the swap or the conversion. Right now I have an 88 T-Bird 5.0 SO with a HO upper, TB, headers, and 2.25 true dual exhaust. The engine has 125,000 miles on it and runs great, no nocking, smoking, or funny noises.
Here's what I'd need if I did the conversion:
speed density HO computer
19lb/hr injectors
E7 heads
HO cam
New roller lifters
double roller timing chain
new oil pump
new oil pan (my rear drain plug is kinda fuged up I already have a replacement drain plug in it)
front and rear main seals, front cover gasket, oil pan gasket, head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, and head bolts.
If I did the swap I'd need:
rebuilt 5.0 HO (I'd get one from Motorcraft, they come with a 3 year 75,000 mile warranty. They also have a oil pump, oil pan, and a front cover installed already.)
HO speed density computer
19lb/hr injectors
intake manifold gaskets and valve cover gaskets.
So since I know some of you have done this what will give me more bang for my buck so to speak? What's easier and what do you think I'd be better off doing in the long run?I'm looking for some input from you guys who have done this and I want to learn from your experience so I don't end up with a big head ache.
Oh and a side note. Has anyone actually opened up a stock never removed motor from an 87-88 5.0 SO Cougar or T-Bird and found it didn't have a roller cam? I got in an arguement yeaterday with a guy who said that only HOs were roller cams and that the standard 5.0 wasn't. I swear that from mid 86 on all SEFI 5.0s in passenger cars were roller reguardless if they were HOs or not. Am I right?
My dead stock '86 Thunderbird with a non-H.O. 302 had a roller cam. I think all the SEFI cars did, but that may not be the case. The non-H.O. cams use the standard 302 firing order, while the H.O.s used the firing order from the 351W.
You already got the biggest improvement the H.O.s had - better exhaust. I hope you're already running the Mustang headers, the Tbirds' are junk. None of the rest of that stuff will add much power, except the heads and cam, and that is going to be marginal at best.
Just get the MAF setup from a '89+ Mustang, they are very common and can be found dirt cheap from people that have upgraded theirs. That way the cam and head changes you have planned won't pose any problems.
You would be better off with an inexpensive pair of brand new Dart Jr iron heads (now sold as Roush heads) instead of the E7s. They're better in every way, they bolt on without modification, and don't need a rebuild like most of the E7s you find will. The stock H.O. cam is very good and can be found used for very cheap. You can reuse the factory roller cams and lifters because the lobes don't develop a wear pattern with the lifters. You can make even more power if you dig around the aftermarket a bit, and can find a grind that isn't too lumpy but will make a lot of power.
Good luck-
kujo if i may make a suggestion
get a nice cam for your bird :D
and i would go with the new reman if money allows... but who doesnt mind getting their hands dirty :D
haha...
the heads and the cam are going to give you the biggest gain. you already have the intake and tb so thats good. the exaust does help as well. you already have the headers if you have the hpipe/duals.
if money alows id at least go with the fresh longblock as long as its an HO. alot of those re-man units do not have the forged pistons. something to think about at least. id convert to maf. maybe a set of decent heads as well though thats going to add alot to cost between purchaseing them and a decent valvetrain kit.
i think a fresh longblock would be the smartest thing to do. all new, nice and fresh. converting your old setup would be cheeper, but its still going to have 125k miles on it. likely you will end up installing some used heads with who knows what for a valve train as well as a used cam. hopefully not on all the original bearings. all that is going to push the short block harder than it has ever before. not to mention you have now torn into it.
if you are going to properly rebuild your short block than all thats a non issue realy. then you can at least pick your parts out yourself. it will all look stock as specially if you use your stock valvecovers and top plate for the intake. basically the headers, injectors and maf if you install it are all thats going to give it away at first glance.
i did the swap because it was easier and faster. if you look around, you can find a HO motor cheap, grab a speed density computer (or maf if your feeling frisky) and swap it out by noon. if you do the conversion... why bother unless your REALY trying to save money, because in my mind, once the engine is appart, why not replace the pistons, cam, possibly heads ect with something better. deffinatly the cam tho, because it will never be that easy to do again and they are cheap, 150ish.
Go w/ the HO motor cause of the pistons so that in the future if you decide to put in a cam you don’t have to worry about valve/piston clearance issues.
But thats just my 2cents.
Agreed. Aint to many big valve heads you can run with flat tops. Your cam choices are a little more limited as well. You could always order an Explorer motor and swap to the HO cam or something a little more radical (The Explorer cam is more gutsy than an SO cam , but milder than an HO cam) that way you have GT-40P heads. Those heads, a good cam, and a ported lower intake will make the go pedal fun to step on:cool:
If I were you and could afford it, I'd go with the new long block from Ford. Your current SO motor is happy with all of it's parts and has been together for 125k miles. Whose to say you take it apart to convert it to HO and it decides it doesn't want to work for you. There are a number of stupid annoyances that could pop up using your original block.
You have a beautiful car thats going to be around for a long time. It's understandable to want the HO and I fully understand that you don't want to make your car a race car but better than it is. Get yourself the new block, pull your original and store it. You never know, you may want to put your car back to stock one day. I wanted to do that with my original SO but had no place to store it :(
I'll disagree. The heads and cam are much better but the exhaust was the biggest choking point. If you swap the internals but keep the lame exhaust, you won't gain anything at all.
Not to mention that the E7s and stock H.O. cam are pretty pitiful in comparison to anything the aftermarket offers. It would be like going from an F in a class to a C-. Yeah it's better but it's still pretty bad... ;)
from my own experiance, adding the exaust alone while helps, deffinetly doent offer a ton of gains. the heads, cam and intake are where its it. no, obviously the e7s cant compare to anything aftermarket but were talking stock/mild here anyway.
i guarantee that if you took to stock sports and added just the true dual exaust and stang headers to one, and only the HO intake, cam, tb, computer and heads to the other, the later of the 2 would undenialbly be noticabley quicker.
yeah the stock exaust blows, but the stock heads and cam suck even more. the HO parts are deffinetly going to suffer withought a proper exaust. either way, just do it all.
in fact, id take Pauls advice and get the explorer engine and swap in a decent cam, or a crate engine of some sort.
Thanks for all the replys guys. Right now I'm leaning towards the 5.0 HO from Motorcraft. It costs $2,000 (according to my local Ford dealer) and comes with a 3 year 75,000 mile warranty. It seems like a steal to me at this point. I know I could go all crazy with the engine but the car isn't used for racing and I doubt it will ever be a regular at the track. I might take it once just to see how it'll run but that's about it. I could just replace it with a stock motor but I figured since a SO and a HO cost the same ammount of money why not go with the better engine. Since I already have the Stang HO shorties, 2.25 duals, and the HO upper droping in the HO is just a matter of changing the computer to a HO speed density computer and poping on some 19lb/hr injectors. Besides a HO with the 3.73 Traction-Lok rear I have in already should scoot the car pretty well:cool:
it should go alright. keep in mind that likely that engine is going to come with hyperjunk pistionas`
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0408mm_dss/
I just had to make the same decision. One of my 88 T birds has 64,308 miles on it, leaks nothing, and runs fine...but not quite fine enough. So I opted for the conversion. Here's some stuff I bought and prices just FYI- Mass air sensor/computer/wireharness/ & air tube- $330 ( on line auction) BTW- I'm not using it at this point
19lb injectors- FREE! buddy gave'em after modifying truck
GT-H.O. cam-$50 used swap meet
1988 mustang speed density computer-$30 on line auction
Stainless steel shorties-$218 new on line auction
GT 40 cylinder heads complete w/ new valves and roller rockers-$400
TYPHOON upper & lower intake- $235 On line auction
65mm T body ( with TPS & EGR spacer) $225 NEW on line..
and probably another $300 or so in misc. parts like gaskets wires etc.BUT If I had 100K + miles... go new HO, & i ain't even sure you can buy a new SO.
So I might be having a local machiene shop build a HO for me. They a very respected and have done some of the engines in my Thunderbird club. All his work comes with a 12 month 12,000 mile guarentee. I was talking to him and he said he could build me a 5.0 with stock HO heads and stock HO roller cam for $2,100. Or he could build me a 5.0 with a stock HO roller cam and iron GT-40 heads for $2,250. I'm thinking for the extra $150 I might as well go with the GT-40 iron heads. Now the only question I have is will a 5.0 HO with GT-40 iron heads as it ONLY mod run fine with on speed density? If so I'm getting GT-40 heads:cool:
Thats cool, I'm doing an HO conversion...someday (when/if the Chevelle ever gets finished.....) but I'm very limited on funds...and I doubt my mom would be happy with me having more that 225hp (I'm surprised she doesnt have a prob with the stock HO). I was able to get all the parts for an HO conversion for around $250 total on eBay. As for exhaust, that upgrade will be coming very soon (if not before) the HO conversion.
And yeah, the extra money for the GT40 heads would be worth it. As for any potential problems, I'm not sure.
i doubt the heads will give you trouble, as specially with the stocker HO intake. hey, if it realy gives you trouble than you still can convert to MAF
Heads won't be an issue. The issue with speed density as has been stated before is that speed density likes a good amount of vacuum for a nice idle. It runs like poo-poo with aggresive cams with smaller lobe separation angles.
Speed Density likes vacuum to run properly. A good rule of thumb is that you can run speed density on a cam with a lobe separartion angle of 114 or more. Some cams with 112 LSA will work, some won't. Once you start getting real aggressive with the cams you must either go mass air or get a stand alone computer setup. I've included a list of speed density friendly cams as per 50tech.com. To run some of them will require a little tweaking with an adjustable fule pressure regulator and/or bigger injectors (there was one guy on that site supposedly running 36 pound injectors on a stock speed density computer with a rather aggressive head/cam/intake combo). The second pic is a fuel injector chart to show how different injectors flow at different pressures and the max supported horsepower level are.
Which are fine unless you want to use supercharger or nitrous... Even then a small amount of boost won't hurt anything... Hell Ronnie(chrome302jr) has sprayed a 125hp shot on his and it's doing fine..
My 428 Cobra Jet has cast pistons, that are not even as good as the hypeteruric(shiznit I can't spell it), 38 years later they have yet to be pulled out of the block...
For you guys converting, I'd give serious consideration to keeping the E6 heads. They actually give a little better low end torque and with all the other components changed to HO, you'll be at approx 205HP. Going this route eleminates the valve to piston issues, and you have basically the '86 HO version(actually the 86 didn't have a HO upper and used a smaller 58mm T-body).
But before any engine mods are made(or at the same time)convert to a good true dual exaust system. A good 2 1/2 system on a '86 HO will give 225hp easy(course a E7 head version will give closer to 245hp). The E7 figure is from MM&FF in a head test article. The stock HO produced 20 more HP on the dyno(using a free flowing exaust system), than it was rated.
I've got an '86 H.O,ported E-7 heads,BBk shorties,2 1/2 inch duals,off road x-pipe,Explorer intake,a/c and smog delete.I have NO idea on the horsepower.I'd like to know,especially ith the ported E-7 heads.Perhaps if I ever find a dyno,I'll check it out.I do know,it has great torque,and runs awesome.
So as the car sits right now it is going to get the HO dropped in instead of doing the conversion on the SO in it. Like I said before the car already has a pretty good flowing custom bent 2.25 dual system with stock Stang shorties and the HO upper and TB. I also have a 3.73 traction-lok so the car will move good. I know when it's done I'd be happy to get to 60 in under 7 seconds and run the quarter somewhere in the 14-14.9 second range (if i ever take it to the track). I'm thinking that's possible with the stock HO with out iron GT-40 heads. I just have to figure out if I want to spend the extra $150 on GT-40 heads.
Oh and TurboCoupe50 thanks for the advice on the conversion. If the engine had less than 125,000 on it I would probably be doing the conversion. I just have a feeling that if I did the conversion that the high milage rings or bearings might let go and i'd have to rebuild the short block anyway.
t-jet no problem, probably the best route... But I have a freind with a '88 Sport that has 340,xxx miles(yes three hundred-forty-thousand), heads never off(yea it's real tired)... It's now parked due to the AOD tranny finally expiring... I have a chance to buy it, but other than a decent body it's about ready for everything..
BTW here's a shot of the odometer in Feb '04 with 322k mi
http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/wayne322K.JPG
Holy :eek: . I guess 5.0s are really durable.
Based on your experience TurboCoupe50 the stock 5.0 HO will probably do what I want correct? The iron GT-40 heads would probably make the car just a smidge (ie .3) seconds quicker.
The Vic' has about 273,2xx miles on her 5.0
Yea with 3.73s and a 2400 converter a stock HO should get you into the 14s. But a buck and a half(additional) for the GT40s is a screaming deal... .3 is definatly an inprovement that can be felt... If you could make a comparison before buying, you'd be off that $150 in a hurry...
my advice... GET THE HEADS as well...
Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to go with the GT-40 headed engine. I found out that I can get it for $2,050 if I give the guy the engine that's in my T-bird now as a core. So I get $200 off. So for $2,050 I get a 5.0 HO with the stock roller cam, GT-40 heads, 1.7 roller rockers, oil pump and pick up, oil pan, front cover and water pump, and valve covers. Plus it comes with a 1 year 12,000 mile warranty. I like this deal. The guy has been in business for over 30 years and he has a good reputation with a lot of the car clubs in the area. I can't wait for March now so I can get this engine:cool:
All those miles and it looks like his f&cking gas guage still works.....
As well as the others too, he's been in the dash and repl the voltage reg a couple years before the pic was taken... Car was cold(Feb) not started in a few days when I took the pict... I was holding the idle up, as it wasn't sure it wanted to keep running on its own...
http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/wayne322K.JPG
With that many miles on it, I bet it was pretty sure it didn't want to run.
So one more quick question. Has anyone used a 5.0 HO speed density computer from a Mark VII with no ill effects? Every time I go to the wreaker I usually see 1-3 Mark VIIs there but no 5.0 Stangs. I know I'd be limited to 110 mph because of the speed limiter but I doubt I'd be driving that fast on public roads anyway. I just want to make sure my cruise control and other systems will work with no problems.
are not :D
114,xxx miles and i had to rebuild mine
betcha cant wait to get the HO in there
I'm sure you're an exception. Mine's got nearly 210k with below average maintenance for the first 160k (only enough to keep it running and passing emissions - oil changes every 10,000 miles or so - have the records). How it runs hasn't changed one bit in the last 50,000 I've had it, other than the seized o2 sensors dying, with proper maintenance. Its had some top end noise from one cylinder all this time, yet it keeps going problem free.
Not that I wouldn't mind a new motor soon. One quart every 1-2,000 miles (varies...???) for the last 40k and I'm not getting near that much out of the rear main. I figure with a HO with all the underhood upgrades, I should get about the same fuel economy as a stock car with a SO, especially a worn SO.
:iagree:
Mine has 127,000 on it with "average" maintenance (oil changes every 5,000-8,000 miles, I have the reciepts) and runs fine. It has a bit of lifter noise when it warms up and a small rear main leak (1 quart every 3,000 miles) and it'll bark the tires and leave a bit'o rubber when I romp on the gas. The only reason that I'm dropping in the GT-40 headed HO is that I need to change the oil pan because the rear plug is stripping, which lead to thoughts of replacing the oil pump and front and rear mains, which lead me to figure what the heck new engine time. Besides who wouldn't like a 240ish hp engine where a 155 hp one used to live :cool: ?
I have 2 road worthy 88 Tbirds. Both 5.0L- One is red with a 93 mustang HO( E303 cam 70 mm Tbody/ gt 40 heads/ long tube mac headers tremec 5 speed & 4.10s in the rear) the other is a black SO. I drove the red one from Carlisle PA ( 4.5 hrs) and got 22 mpg at 2100rpm. That same day I drove my black one to carlisle with 2.73 gears and got 28 mpg at 16-1800 rpms.Iwas extremely impressed with both. But like the man above said who couldn't use a more powerful engine when the mileage is the same, given the tremendous difference in gearing of my 2 birds.- hence- I'm doing the HO conversion in the black one as we speak!
The '88 up LSC EEC should be fine... Actually I have one, IF I can ever get it back from my freind who did the HO swap into a '85 F150(its all Stock HO, but has the truck intake with a huge dual T-body)... Gave him two LSC and a '87 Stang EEC and told him to keep whichever one he wanted. I know he's using the 'Stang EEC at the moment... I also have a '88 Stang EEC he's going to try, so if you ain't in a hurry I'll have something....