What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Topic: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working. (Read 16927 times) previous topic - next topic

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #120 – July 06, 2014, 09:22:53 AM

44 is something i can believe. here is why. All cars are tested by the EPA on certain standards and on highway mileage simulated by varying road conditions. like hills ETC. So everyone in the industry is on the same page. But lets say you live in NEVADA where it is hot and the roads are mostly flat i think. Not 100% sure they are flat but just assuming they are in the desert. And drive at night when it is cool and you have your AC shut down. Sure i can believe you get 44 without no question. But 52 is a far cry from 44. Big difference my friend. So a TDI diesel gets 55 MPG in Europe but in the US they only get 44 APP. Reason is simple in Europe they tune for max mileage and not emissions. So that is why Europe is dominated with high mileage diesel cars. Hybrids like the PRIUS are not as common there because in slow and city traffic they get horrible mileage. My thoughts on the PRIUS is my own so do not take offense at this but the car is a piece of shiznit. Gets horrible mileage if you look at all the factors and is another rip off bestowed on the Americans as usual. States give them tax weavers and such and in my view a small American car does much better with fuel efficiency if all the factors are accounted for. Like recycling the battery's and mining the materials for the battery's, This takes energy and the bottom line is simple. The TREE HUGGERS are in control in this country and they are destroying it. Not all the rules are bad but most are. Have a great Sunday Guys

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #121 – July 06, 2014, 04:02:15 PM

I got 498 miles to my last tank and put a whole 10 gallons back in. this was mixed driving, not straight freeway. about 300 miles was freeway. mixed in was also short trips to buy smokes at thr gas station, little 2-5 mile trips here and there. my average speed over that tank was 42mph. ac on, cruise control set, no fancy tricks.

and i did a rub along the salt flats from my house to wendover nevada. speed limit was 80mph. i only got 34mpg due to the 3k+ rpm at that speed. slowing down gained me nearly 1mpg per mile an hour, but i kept to 75-80mph. this is the standard 1.6, nothing fancy. my current tank is 100% city, haven't even touched 60mph yet, and I'm sitting at about 38mpg for this tank.

if you look at a geo metro, they were getting 50mpg years ago with no hybrid . they also didn't have the air bags, but id think technology has gotten us a bit further by now. hybrids are to keep gas efficient cars expensive and out of reach of most of us and make them hard to maintain to keep us away from electric cars.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #122 – July 08, 2014, 07:12:43 AM

I hate to tell you STACKS electric cars are the future by the way the industry is going. Also Diesels and turbocharges will be on every new car in the future. As far as mileage goes all the technology in the world can not make more BTU'S out of a gallon of gas. So unless someone comes up with a chemical that makes more BTU'S than gas at present and does not pollute the air making the car lighter and raising the compression much higher is the only way to increase mileage. That is basically how it works to an extent. Of course the average engine is only 25% efficient so a new engine just might be the answer. Or building engines GAS with 12-1 CR and above. This is from memory of my college years when we were discussing engines and magic carbs that got 40 MPG. The carbs basically have nothing to do with it In general terms. But the old timers always said there was a MAGIC CARB in gas companies vault. have a good tuesday

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #123 – July 08, 2014, 10:23:49 AM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;435555

Sure i can believe you get 44 without no question. But 52 is a far cry from 44. Big difference my friend. So a TDI diesel gets 55 MPG in Europe but in the US they only get 44 APP. Reason is simple in Europe they tune for max mileage and not emissions. So that is why Europe is dominated with high mileage diesel cars.

How much of the difference is from the Imperial gallon (1.2 US gallons) and the easier European fuel economy test?

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #124 – July 08, 2014, 03:29:53 PM

Good question, especially considering an imperal gallon is .8 compared to the us gallon. 55 x .8 = 44...

A hybrid can never be as efficient as a singular gas engine. Everytime you convert.mechanical energy into battery power, there is a huge loss. gas engine we will say 25% efficient. they coupled directly to a generator, you lose at least 10% to a belt, then the generator will be less then 90% efficient. the charging process depending on battery type will only be maybe 80% efficient, then converting it from a battery.back to power the motor uses will only be maybe 90% efficient, then the motor itself will only be 75-85% efficient.

how is that better then a single gas motor?

As for an all electric car, the losses will definitely be greater between the power plant and your outlet, plus what every charging system your going to use, as well as how efficient the batteries themselves are.

the only way for an electric car to be more efficient is for it to run off of wasted fuel, or to be 100% free renewable energy. for the cost of solar panels to power an electric car you could easily drive for several years without breaking even compared to a gas car. its after those couple years that a electric car starts to make sense, assuming the batterys.stay up.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #125 – July 08, 2014, 10:08:13 PM

The para-static losses are minimal on Hybrids. They solved that years ago. Jeremy when they do the comparison they use use US gallons not imperial. Many people assume that but people know there is a difference so they use US gallons as i said. In Europe they tune for MPG not emissions. have a good evening guys

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #126 – July 08, 2014, 10:58:49 PM

It has nothing to do with parasitic losses. that's just converting energy back and forth, and only if you beleive the manufacture claims.

I've test over 20 electric motors and messured for peak power losses and found them to be highly fluctuating reguardless of setup. for instance, most electric motors are less then 50% efficient and part throttle, and most are less then 25%. That is only between the controller and the motor.

electric motors are very efficent at a specific load and rpm. everywhere else they're not even close to rated claims. factor in the couple thousands of lbs of batteries and remind your self this is all powered bty a regular automotive battery to begin with.

there is no way for a hybrid to be anywheres near as efficent as a gas motor would be alone. they don't make sense, they don't last, and they are expensive.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #127 – July 08, 2014, 11:03:35 PM

Quote

there is no way for a hybrid to be anywheres near as efficent as a gas motor would be alone. they don't make sense, they don't last, and they are expensive.

For right now, yes. 20 years from now may be a whole different story.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #128 – July 09, 2014, 12:39:32 AM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;435654

Jeremy when they do the comparison they use use US gallons not imperial. Many people assume that but people know there is a difference so they use US gallons as i said. In Europe they tune for MPG not emissions. have a good evening guys

The V-dub UK website shows 55mpg for the GTI. But that's 55mpg imperial, not US.
The GTD gets an impressive 63.4 US mpg highway. However, that's using the European test. Add in a 30% knockdown factor and you're at 44mpg highway. Do the same thing to the GTI and you end up with 32 mpg, the same rating as the US GTI.

Quote from: Haystack;435637

A hybrid can never be as efficient as a singular gas engine. Everytime you convert.mechanical energy into battery power, there is a huge loss. gas engine we will say 25% efficient. they coupled directly to a generator, you lose at least 10% to a belt, then the generator will be less then 90% efficient. the charging process depending on battery type will only be maybe 80% efficient, then converting it from a battery.back to power the motor uses will only be maybe 90% efficient, then the motor itself will only be 75-85% efficient.

how is that better then a single gas motor?

As for an all electric car, the losses will definitely be greater between the power plant and your outlet, plus what every charging system your going to use, as well as how efficient the batteries themselves are.

This thread be hi-jacked!

Not necessarily true. One big thing most (all?) gas hybrids do is swap the engine from the Otto to Atkinson cycle. It decreases your power, but increases your efficiency (BSFC). The 1.8L Prius engine puts out 98 hp. The Otto cycle version of the engine puts out ~135hp. In the Prius' case, the transmission allows the engine to operate near peak efficiency at all times. Reducing pumping losses goes a long way towards increasing mpg. You can look at the Gen III Prius's BSFC chart to see that the engine is kept at a high load at all times to reduce pumping loss and maximize BSFC. You can't do that with any automatic/manual transmission.

You can get close with a conventional CVT, but the Prius "e-CVT" is more efficient than a conventional belt driven CVT. Th e-CVT is really just a planetary gearset with the engine hooked up to the planetary carrier, a motor/generator (MG2) on the ring gear, and another (smaller) motor/generator (MG1) on the sun gear. The transmission is amazingly simply and efficient, but takes a while to wrap your head around how it works.

I can't remember what the actual numbers are offhand, but motor/generator efficiency is >90%. The system doesn't have any belts, only a few gear meshes, which are typically 98% efficient per mesh. While it's not very efficient to charge/discharge a battery - it's more efficient than throwing out 100% of your braking energy.
This thread does a pretty good job of explaining the efficiencies.

If a car company could use a simple gas engine to equal the mpg of a hybrid, they would. However, they can't - so we get hybrids.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #129 – July 09, 2014, 01:46:44 AM

That's what I'm getting at.

only the gears are ">90%" efficient. then you have the losses of the generators. which will be at most 90% efficent, if that much. then you have an actual current voltage conversion to get them down to battery pack voltage, again MAYBE 90% efficent, and then the losses of charging the packs and then the entire reverse order again to recall the energy.

a simple fact, everytime you convert energy from on form to another, you WILL LOSE 10% minimum. we aren't changing the gas to voltage. your changing gas to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, then you are regulating the voltage to a different voltage, then you are converting it to stored energy. then you have to do the revese, plus the losses in speed controls for the motor (another at minimum 10% loss).

There is no way for it to be that efficient. that thread you linked to is only talking about the "drivetrain" losses. none other. They would be better off with a gas engine, particularly for freeway. city the regenerative breakibg.helps where a gas only car suffers, but the added complexity of having 3+ extra motors/generators, two transmissions, and the hardware to make it work and 1000lbs of battery make it impossible to do the same job more efficent then that gas motor it gets its power from in the first place.

i can get 50mpg freeway out of my little 1.6 liter fiesta. i set the.cruise control to 65mph, set the ac on, click my seat back one or two clicks and im ready for a solid drive at 50+mpg. No tricks, no special tuning. a conventional 2500lb econo box.

the prius is pretending to be smart and eco freindly when nothing could be further from the truth. chevy and toyota already got together and did the same thing 20 years ago. they called it the geo metro.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #130 – July 09, 2014, 01:53:40 AM

Btw, my cars epa freeway speed was at an average speed of 48mph. which is funny to me, every freeway more then 10 miles outside my city has an 80mph speed limit. my car does a whole 34mpg at 80mph. bet the prius is right near there or lower. the few people I've talked to with a prius bragg about getting 40+mpg.

the epa does not rate all cars the same. you can see that.by.the average speeds the cars were.tested at.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #131 – July 09, 2014, 06:59:30 AM

Jeramie when the European models are tested here as a comparison they use US GALLONS!! Not EURO. And of course cars are tested differently i explained that because of gear ratios weight ETC, Also the REGEN BRAKING OF THE PRIUS offsets any losses. That as you say is why they build that piece of shiznit. Mileage numbers by smoke and mirrors. Also remember the PRIUS gets app 15-20 % of its mileage from LRRT. Either way mileage is a poker game. Once you know the rules of poker you understand it. YOU CAN'T WIN YOU CANT LOOSE BUT THE MAIN THING IS YOU CAN NOT GET OUT OF THE GAME. Have a nice day.

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #132 – July 09, 2014, 11:43:08 AM

Quote from: Haystack;435663

They would be better off with a gas engine, particularly for freeway. city the regenerative breakibg.helps where a gas only car suffers, but the added complexity of having 3+ extra motors/generators, two transmissions, and the hardware to make it work and 1000lbs of battery make it impossible to do the same job more efficent then that gas motor it gets its power from in the first place.

i can get 50mpg freeway out of my little 1.6 liter fiesta. i set the.cruise control to 65mph, set the ac on, click my seat back one or two clicks and im ready for a solid drive at 50+mpg. No tricks, no special tuning. a conventional 2500lb econo box.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying a Prius with the hybrid junk removed and a conventional gas engine put in it's place would get better mpg?

You can debunk that just by looking at current hybrids. Toyota has several cars that have conventional and hybrid drivetrains on the same chassis. A few examples:

2014 Toyota Camry
Conventional - 25 city / 35 highway
Hybrid -------- 41 city / 39 highway

2014 Toyota Highlander
Conventional - 18 city / 24 highway
Hybrid -------- 27 city / 28 highway

2013 Chevrolet Tahoe
Conventional - 15 city / 21 highway
Hybrid -------- 20 city / 23 highway

Also, the Prius battery pack weighs 110 lbs.

Quote from: Haystack;435664

Btw, my cars epa freeway speed was at an average speed of 48mph. which is funny to me, every freeway more then 10 miles outside my city has an 80mph speed limit. my car does a whole 34mpg at 80mph. bet the prius is right near there or lower. the few people I've talked to with a prius bragg about getting 40+mpg.

the epa does not rate all cars the same. you can see that.by.the average speeds the cars were.tested at.

The current EPA test runs all cars through the same test. Some cars 'game' the system by their nature - aka ecoboost. But that is due to the ecoboost doing better in the EPA test than the real world, not cheating. The Gen III Prius is rated at 51/48. The fuelly.com average is 47-51 mpg. This guy gets 40 mpg @ 80mph and 55mpg @ 65mpg in a Prius that is 20% heavier, and much roomier inside than your Fiesta.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;435667

Jeramie when the European models are tested here as a comparison they use US GALLONS!! Not EURO. And of course cars are tested differently i explained that because of gear ratios weight ETC

Tom, it's okay to admit you're wrong once in a while. I have to do it all the time! :D

They don't use US gallons in the UK any more than we use Imperial gallons here.
You can look at the UK VW website to confirm this.
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-gti-vii/which-model/engines/overview

Urban- 55.4 mpg/ 5.1 ltr per 100km
http://www.calculateme.com/cGasMileage/LitersPer100kmtoMPG-imperial.htm shows that 5.1 L/100km = 55.38 mpg (Imperial).

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #133 – July 09, 2014, 02:29:58 PM

110Lb of battery and nickle metal at that. i have model airplanes that have less then a pound worth of battery, and the same sized pack would be about 60% smaller and put out nearly twice the power as the same sized nimh pack. we were using nicads 30-40 Years ago, nimh 20-25 years ago, lithium ion 10-15 years ago and lipo for the last 10 or so in model airplanes, although they have been around quite a bit longer then that.

The prius use a 6.5 ah battery at 200v. my model airplanes run 2.2ah batteries at 12v's. i buy them for about $7 a peice and they weigh less then 6ounces (5.81 with connector). so if i could come up with 48 of these $7 batteries, i woild have the same power as the prius battery. actually quite a bit more, due to the soc, and they would only weigh about 24lbs. Oh, and also, my batteries would be good for over 50amps continuous discharge, nimh will never get.close.to that.

and what I'm getting at with my fiesta, it isn't the high efficency model. its the biggest motor and lowest efficency availiable. Imagine what you could do with a 1.0 liter epa rated 44mpg freeway if that's what i can do with an epa rated 38mpg. there is no fancy.hybrid system. there are not any.extra batteries or anything else to get in the way. so why isn't the prius that much better?

Looking at ghe hybrids you posted, most are 2-4mpg better then the gas motor equivilent. how many years will it take to make money over that compares to buying the regular gas model?

What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.

Reply #134 – July 09, 2014, 05:25:07 PM

Quote from: Haystack;435684

110Lb of battery and nickle metal at that. i have model airplanes that have less then a pound worth of battery, and the same sized pack would be about 60% smaller and put out nearly twice the power as the same sized nimh pack. we were using nicads 30-40 Years ago, nimh 20-25 years ago, lithium ion 10-15 years ago and lipo for the last 10 or so in model airplanes, although they have been around quite a bit longer then that.

The prius use a 6.5 ah battery at 200v. my model airplanes run 2.2ah batteries at 12v's. i buy them for about $7 a peice and they weigh less then 6ounces (5.81 with connector). so if i could come up with 48 of these $7 batteries, i woild have the same power as the prius battery. actually quite a bit more, due to the soc, and they would only weigh about 24lbs. Oh, and also, my batteries would be good for over 50amps continuous discharge, nimh will never get.close.to that.

Using Li-Ion in your drill or quadcopter is a few orders of magnitude easier than incorporating it into a car. You need it to last for more than the 100,000 miles / 8 year warranty (150,000 miles/10yr in several states), survive extreme temperatures (which requires 24/7 conditioning), survive crashes, meet all kinds of Federal safety standards, etc. Toyota started off with NiMh because Li-Ion technology wasn't ready for the automotive world. The technology matured and auto makers begun using it. Toyota began selling the Prius v (outside of the US) with a Li-Ion battery in 2012. The 2015 Prius (major model change) will incorporate Li-ion. I think Ford started using Li-Ion in 2013 or so. Boeing introduced Li-Ion onto commercial airplanes in 2011, and that didn't work out so well!

Quote

and what I'm getting at with my fiesta, it isn't the high efficency model. its the biggest motor and lowest efficency availiable. Imagine what you could do with a 1.0 liter epa rated 44mpg freeway if that's what i can do with an epa rated 38mpg. there is no fancy.hybrid system. there are not any.extra batteries or anything else to get in the way. so why isn't the prius that much better?

Looking at ghe hybrids you posted, most are 2-4mpg better then the gas motor equivilent. how many years will it take to make money over that compares to buying the regular gas model?

The 2014 Fiesta 1.0L turbo is rated at 31/43. The 2014 Prius 51/48. The Prius is 65% more efficient in the city and 12% more on the highway. The Fiesta averages 36 mpg on fuelly.com. The Prius ~48 mpg. 33% better.

2-4 mpg is on the highway. City mpgs are 30-60% greater. Not many people drive solely on the intersate. If they do, a hybrid probably isn't the best choice unless it's a Prius (since they're ouright designed to maximum mpg).

I'm driving a rental Prius v this week. Need something that will fit 4 adults and (not at the same time!) my dog in the hatch area. Most similar competitor is a RAV4 or CR-V. A 2012 Prius v is a bit smaller, the same price, but gets 30% better EPA mpg for the type of driving I do. Real world difference will probably be closer to 50% given that I'm averaging ~48mpg in the Prius v with day to day driving.

The v certainly isn't a real riot to drive, but I do like nerding out on the 300+ PIDs I can watch/log on my phone.