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Cold air intakes

Reply #30
Neither does your C&L elbow!

:shakeass:
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

Cold air intakes

Reply #31
Just to point another thing out with regards to the filters, I do remember that when I had a Pro-M MAF it was calibrated for 24 lb/hr injectors and a cone style element.  I only found this out after calling them for a transfer function table to take to the dyno with me by request of the tuner.  I asked the tuner about it and he said it can make a difference but that he would take care of it in the tune.  Not sure how much that really makes a difference but I thought I would mention it.  I did a quick search and found a couple of articles about it one of which is here:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1308-how-air-filters-work/

Scroll down to the section titled "Sensor Compatibility" and they mention it here.  Again, I'm not saying what we are doing will kill a ton of hp it any but I just wanted you guys to be aware of it.

Darren

83 351W TKO'd T-Bird on the bottle


93 331 Mustang Coupe - 368 rwhp

Cold air intakes

Reply #32
Quote from: V8Demon;435990
I'd throw it on and put the march air box around it and cut a gigantic hole in the fender and the box.  No snorkel tube.

FWIW -- Seeing as I will probably keep the underhood filter and make a heat shield for it, I ordered MAC's CT5 tube which is a direct substitute for the C&L black p/n 105.  According to the sheet that came with the 76mm MAF and elbow, the 102/blue is for a stock airbox/fenderwell and the 105 is for a filter at the end of the MAF. 

I wonder if they are sizing it differently for the lack of a bend or the fact that the underhood cone filter sees prop wash from the fan.....  From what I understand the stock air box acts as a bend in the sytem just like a fenderwell intake does. 

Interestingly enough, the only size injectors they make this distinction for are 19's and 24's.....


Wondering out loud here:

I have the blue tube (102) in my 76mm. I'm wondering if a coupler between the MAF and a conical filter is different vs and conical filter bolted directly to the end of the MAF? If I swap out the stock air box I would use the rubber tube that goes between the MAF and the March Ram Air box. That's how it's designed to be used. I would run it back to back with the stock box to see if there is a gain or not.

If I use the March box and filter I'm going to cut out the side that faces the fender and seal it off from engine heat. Something like this: http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1296636-stock-airbox-300rwhp.html

Edit: picture of what I'm talking about as far as a rubber tube between the MAF and filter. It would look like this.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #33
Just for fun an old quote from Lee who used to own C&L:

I had a long talk with Lee Bender on this issue when I was having problems with the car when I was running a sheilded 12" K&N cone. Here is one of the e-mails from him.

As long as the filter was shielded, you should not have had any problem. We have other customers who run conical filters with this kit, with no problem. We do have a calibration for 36/38 lb injectors. We do not advertise this because most naturally aspirated applications will not require that much fuel.

Your factory airbox with the panel filter flows 800-850 cfm. This is
enough air to support more than 700HP naturally aspirated. If you have any other questions, please call.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #34
Quote
Wondering out loud here:

I have the blue tube (102) in my 76mm. I'm wondering if a coupler between the MAF and a conical filter is different vs and conical filter bolted directly to the end of the MAF? If I swap out the stock air box I would use the rubber tube that goes between the MAF and the March Ram Air box. That's how it's designed to be used. I would run it back to back with the stock box to see if there is a gain or not.

The coupler in front of the MAF in that pic appears identical to the one that came with the Ford Racing MAF conversion kit that I used to swap from speed density many moons ago.  I've been running a cone with a 4" inner  diameter.  I had to use a reducer and some metal along with 2 clamps to get it to mount to my MAF meter.  You can KINDA see it in this photo..... 



 As you might be able to tell from the photo, the metal connecting the coupler to the cone is dryer vent tube.  Haven't had an issue, but was never  really keen on it.....I found a nice new cone filter with almost exact dimensions but with a 3.5" .  Direct fit onto the MAF meter.  The old one was about half an inch from the radiator support.  There's about 4 more inches of space in front now which may be good because there's actually a nice opening there for air to make it's way around....


I wonder if the blue tube would be correct for The cone filter and March box with a larger hole in the fender or would the black (105) be a better fit......  My GUESS would be the black as it's technically mounted to the front of the MAF sensor..... 
I may e-mail C&L to see what they say -- if anything.  I'll call MAC as well.  I have a feeling if I got a hold of both of them the answers will be different, judging by how MAC specs their units. 


****EDIT**** As per the C&L website:

Quote
The Effects of Plumbing in Front of the MAF housing:

There are two configurations which places an inlet tube/pipe directly in front of the MAF housing. This is commonly used for either “blow through” turbocharger/supercharger applications or “cold air” intake arrangements on naturally aspirated vehicles. The most common mistake or issue that people make with this arrangement is that they place a sharp bend or turn in the inlet assembly directly in front of the MAF housing. As the air makes the turn in the plumbing in front of the MAF unit, the majority of the airflow rides along the outside bend inside the tube. This “bias” towards one side of the unit causes the sensor to not read the correct amount of airflow, as the majority of air that should be sampled by the sensor is forced to one side of the unit.

In an attempt to correct this issue, many people believe that you are supposed to “clock” or rotate the orientation of the MAF unit. Doing this only addresses the SYMPTOM of the problem and not the ISSUE. The correct way to keep this from effecting your MAF voltage signal is to ensure that there is a minimum of 6 to 8 inches of straight pipe/plumbing directly in front of the MAF housing, and the diameter of the pipe must be at least as big as the smallest section of the inside diameter of the MAF unit. This allows the airflow the ability to “straighten” before entering the front of the MAF unit, so that it evenly enters the face of the housing.

Changing the orientation (or “clocking”) the mass airflow housing will only have an effect on the signal if you are running an improperly plumbed air intake assembly that is effecting how the airflow enters the unit. When running either a conical filter mounted directly on the end of the MAF housing or an inlet tube arrangement that features a straight airflow path in front of the meter, the orientation of the MAF unit will have absolutely NO effect on the signal output. We have tested the calibrations of mass airflow assemblies on our flowbench with them mounted in various orientations, including on their side and even upside down, with absolutely no change in the calibration signal.
Link:  http://www.cnlperformance.com/MAF_info.php?section=15
I wonder how long this has been on the C&L website.  It seems to address every issue as to why people bash these meters with a resounding "You're doing it wrong, stupid" in reply to those who bash them.....  FWIW -- I've never had an issue with mine. 

The c&L website is back up.  The calibration chart.....

X
Source:  http://www.cnlperformance.com/Calibration-chart.php

I also read back through another thread:

http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37314-Question-for-those-still-running-a-stock-airbox-on-the-5-0&highlight=calibration
Quote from: thunderjet302;432231
C&L changed the calibration tube chart a year or two ago. See here: http://www.cnlperformance.com/Calibration-chart.php

The blue tube (102) is not even specified for 24lb injector and the 73mm MAF anymore. If your C&L 73mm MAF for 24lb injectors is as old as mine (bought in 2010) than you've got the blue tube (102) in the housing. I called C&L and they said the new tube specified (brown 095) results in a 3-5hp gain from leaning out the air/fuel ratio slightly over the blue 102 tube used only in the 76mm MAF with 24lb injectors now.


I pulled my 73 out of the car to measure it up to the 76.  I was curious as to which metering tube my 73 had.  I bought it new in the box back in the day and it's been on the car since about a weeks after I bought it.....
It IS NOT A BLUE (102) TUBE.  It's clearly a different size.  Looking at it there APPEARS  to be a VERY faint hint of orange upon it, which would correspond with the revised setting.  I bought it 7 or 8 years ago.... Perhaps they changed it way back when and never updated the website?

Regardless, I'll have both the 102 & 105 here.  I'll run the 105 with the cone filter. 
I took it upon myself to post the chart as an attachment as 95% of the searches reveal the old chart on just about every other website/picture search.
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

Cold air intakes

Reply #35
Oh good the website is back up. I went to the tech page and found this:

Many of the “Ram Air” kits that are being sold to early 5.0 Mustangs use an air filter arrangement that effects the MAF signal. In one particular case, the air filter that is placed in front of the MAF unit is spaced forward away from the unit by several inches and the filter neck has an inside diameter that is a full ½” smaller than the front of the MAF unit. This disrupts the flow of air into the front of the MAF housing (by “squeezing” the airflow before it enters the unit), and is commonly reported to cause issues. The best thing to do is ensure that you have a good supply of fresh air available to your engine, but do not run any type of inlet arrangement that can alter your mass airflow signal away from what it is supposed to be measuring.

So I won't be running the filter that came with the Ram Air box. It seems it will cause issues. If I'm going to run a conical I have to find one that fits in the March Ram Air box and clamps to the end of the meter. I'll have to run the black 105 tube in that case. So for now stock air box till I find a conical filter that fits the March air box and clamps to the MAF.

The tech page also noted the reason injectors bigger than 24lb only have one calibration tube is that they found above 24lb injectors that you need to run a conical filter. 24lb and below can get away with either the stock box or a conical filter.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #36
I think the one I just picked up may fit your bill.  K&N part # RE-0920.  Slipped right on.  Didn't have to stretch it nor was it loose enough to fall off under it's own weight without a clamp.  VERY good fitment.

 
Quote
UPC: 024844009326
Air Filter Style: Conical
Length (in): 9.000 in.
Inlet  Inside Diameter (in): 3.500 in.
Air Filter Top Measurement: 4.625 in. diameter
Air Filter Bottom Measurement: 6.000 in. diameter
Filter Material: Cotton gauze
Filter Color: Red

I saw the tech page recommended a conical above 280 HP at the wheels.  The box may well be a restriction for me considering I'm about 50 more than that.  You're right there as well. 

What are the measurements on the March filter
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

Cold air intakes

Reply #37
Quote from: V8Demon;436036
I think the one I just picked up may fit your bill.  K&N part # RE-0920.  Slipped right on.  Didn't have to stretch it nor was it loose enough to fall off under it's own weight without a clamp.  VERY good fitment.

 

I saw the tech page recommended a conical above 280 HP at the wheels.  The box may well be a restriction for me considering I'm about 50 more than that.  You're right there as well. 

What are the measurements on the March filter

I'll have to measure the March filter when I get home. If that one is the same dimensionally it would work with the box. Then all I would need is the black 105 tube. Mustangs Unlimited has the MAC CT5 tube which is the same as the C&L 105 tube for $31.95: http://www.mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy01.asp?T1=CT5A+01&Category=Air%2FFuel&subCategory=Mass+Air+Meters&SubSubCategory=Sampling+Tubes&CatKey=74-01 Unless you know somewhere to get it cheaper?

Edit: cheaper to buy direct from MAC: http://shop.macperformance.com/MAC-Ford-Mustang-Calibration-Tube-for-MAC-Mass-Air-Meters-Calibration-Tubes.htm

As far as wheel horsepower I have no idea what I'm making. It's never been on a dyno. The engine will shove 3700lbs of Thunderbird through the quarter around 100mph with a 14 second et cutting a 2.2 60' on street tires. There is more in it with drag radials. I figure about 270hp or so at the wheels. Maybe the stock box is a restriction maybe not. I can't say for sure.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #38
Mac's shipping is more.  They hammered me on that.  Get it from M.U.

Wish I had seen it on there.  I find their website troublesome to navigate.
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

Cold air intakes

Reply #39
That K&N filter will work in the March box. The March filter 6 inches at the base, 4.75 inches at the top, and 9 inches long. I may have to pick it up. I'll see if my local speed guy can get me a deal on it.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #40
Quote from: V8Demon;436045
Mac's shipping is more.  They hammered me on that.  Get it from M.U.

Wish I had seen it on there.  I find their website troublesome to navigate.

To add insult to injury Mustangs unlimited also sells the K&N filter you bought for $5 less than Summit.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #41
Also since you have the K&N conical and the sample tube I'm going to let you try those two parts first and let me know how they work. If it goes well I'll buy them for myself :).
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #42
Quote from: thunderjet302;436055
To add insult to injury Mustangs unlimited also sells the K&N filter you bought for $5 less than Summit.


That I got for even less.  SK Speed had it for $38.
Quote
Also since you have the K&N conical and the sample tube I'm going to let you try those two parts first and let me know how they work. If it goes well I'll buy them for myself

Still waiting on the tube......
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

Cold air intakes

Reply #43
Quote from: V8Demon;436086
That I got for even less.  SK Speed had it for $38.


Still waiting on the tube......

Hmm I'll have to see if my local speed shop has it cheaper than Summit.

When you get the tube and try it with the filter let me know how it works.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Cold air intakes

Reply #44
Right now I'm still running the 73 mm MAF, the tube that came with it, and that new filter.  Drove her for a long run yesterday.  I did take note of the fact that my transmission DOES NOT get hot.  Warm yes, not hot.  I can put the car in park after a drive, open the hood, and pull the tans. dip stick out and grip it right where the fluid is without fear of burning myself at all.  I'm actually a little concerned about what's gonna happen when the cold weather comes.  Time to hook up a gauge to it....
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!