5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? August 26, 2012, 01:14:01 AM I've had a torn down 5.0 HO sitting in the garage since last october, and it's time I started doing SOMETHING to it. I had in my mind I wanted about 450-500hp out of it...no NOS, no supercharger. I heard a lot of different things in other forums-some say its nuts, you cant do it, some say you can, some say you need a supercharger or stroker, and others say if you DO get that much out of it, the block will end up cracking. I WAS going to do a 347, but a local builder told me its a bad idea, because it will just break. Here's what I was thinking:- Stock bore- Forged crank, rods, and flat top pistons- Aluminum ford racing heads, machined- Big cam (NO idea what grind)- tubular gt40 intake manifold- equal length BBK shorty headers (local guy told me theyre better for low end torque)- BBK fender exit intake- x-pipeAnyone on here ever done any performance builds? I've never done ANY engine building, so I'm just going by what I've read right about now lol. Help would be appreciated Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #1 – August 26, 2012, 01:19:12 AM 450 is accomplish-able N/A but it's kind of to the blow up point of the 302, If you're looking for that much power I'd recommend a 351w based motor since they can handle 700ish hp. And it's much easier in my opinion to reach your goal. Just my opinion. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #2 – August 26, 2012, 01:43:06 AM Example of 450Hp 5.0It isn't as much the HP as it is RPMs that destroyed the POS 5.0 blocks, 450Hp NA isn't practical... It'd take spinning it to 7000 plus to get that amount of power and would be almost undrivable on the street unless it was in a stick car... With the cam required, probably would not idle below 1200-1400 RPMs... I know a guy who races vintage SCCA and has split a 5.0 Ford Racing block spinning it to around 7600 RPMs... Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #3 – August 26, 2012, 02:02:19 AM ^hahaahaa that picture is full of awesomeness!Can't help with your build but do wish you the best on it! :D Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #4 – August 26, 2012, 04:06:55 AM So I guess that means it is possible but would most likely overload the block and destroy it..ruining all the work.. I had considered a 351...but since A) its bigger (will it fit properly?), B) already bought a 5.0 and C) wanted to keep with the factory options, and use a 5.0 badge, I kind of shyed away. Why is it that the 5.0 is weak but the 5.7 is stronger, if they're both ford Windsor blocks? The thing that confuses me also is the Modular engine they used to make the new 5.0 and the ford GT engine, they pound 550 horse through them and they're about the same size as the windsor, plus the GT is an aluminum block....are they just built structurally stronger? Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #5 – August 26, 2012, 04:17:39 AM Is there a rev limiter that keeps the stock engine's rpm at 4-5 grand, or whatever the stock redline is, or does it rev to a certain point based on the power? Might be a dumb question, but I'm new to engine building lol. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #6 – August 26, 2012, 05:22:45 AM A simpler way to get 420 hp out of 5.0 is to swap in the Coyote engine.:D It just might be cheaper too!Though that answer may seem flippant, it points out the level of technology necessary to achieve a large amount of power from just 5 liters (and Coyote engine's power level is a bit less than your goal). The parts listed might provide a little north of 300 RWHP. Depending on cam choice. If a "big cam" is chosen, power & drivability may be questionable.:hick:There are two things necessary to make big power out of a (relatively) small engine: Air Flow and RPM. -well actually that's what it takes to make big power from any size engine-Do a search on the net to see what the cylinder heads flow and the RPM range of the Coyote engine (ignore the phased cam timing and the greater sophistication of the engine control system [in comparison to the EEC IV]).So with that in mind, let's review the parts listed:Stock roller 8.2" block: It has serious issues with RPM above 6,000 and substantially increased power levels (these blocks were initially developed for power levels of 120 and peaked in 1993 in the Mustang Cobra at 235). Do a search in the engine tech section for pics of the stock roller block in comparison to an early non roller and aftermarket blocks. There is info there on inherent structural issues which result in the above pic of a split block. Forged rotating assembly in a stock block: The stock rotating assembly (assuming an HO assembly, which has forged pistons) can take more power than the stock block. Given the weakness of the block, spending money on a forged assembly are funds not well spent. Forged assembly = good block (ie. aftermarket).GT40 intake: This is great street intake. It's peak power is 5,500 RPM, well below the 7,000 needed for 450 HP n/a out of a 5.0. For that, think Spyder or an Edelbrock EFI 5.0 (w/a matching 90MM T/Body)Equal length shorty headers: A great set of tubes for a mild street combination. These will mate well with the RPM range of the GT40 intake. Big power needs big full length tubes, think 1 3/4" to 2" with a matching large full flowing exhaust system.Machined Aluminum Ford Racing Heads: There is quite a range of "Ford Racing Heads" and an even greater range of what the term "machined" may entail. Ford heads are book ended by some great street heads and true race heads, with quite a few in between. A pair of GT40X falls into the range of street head, even "machined". They can be a great match to the intake and headers mentioned on the parts list. For 450/500 hp, a head should flow ~300 CFM on the intake and 200+ CFM on the exhaust.X-Pipe: X, H, pro-chamber, they aren't a whole lot different at the high horse power/RPM level. They can impact low speed torque on a street engine with a power peak of ~5,500. Cam: Big cams are not compatible with the parts listed. Cam selection matched to the rest of the combination results in the greatest satisfaction in regard to power, mileage and drivability. "Big cams" are miserable in a mis-matched combo! With the right heads (read big) a big cam may not be required to meet the 450/500 goal, though the lobes would be aggressive with a supporting valve train capable of controlling valve float at high RPM.The majority of the parts listed above may make for a great first engine build, provided power expectations are realistic. If 450/500 n/a horsepower is a solid goal: Set a realistic budget. The dollar amount will not be cheap! Sort out what supporting modification are needed for the power level. Think; brakes (first), suspension, tires (traction will be needed), clutch/converter, transmission, rear end, fuel system and so on...Good luck on your first engine build! Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #7 – August 26, 2012, 06:18:19 AM If you are even going to contemplate that much horsepower, I would recommend a solid block, either a Dart Sportsman or World Products Man O' War. Follow this with a forged and well balanced rotating assembly. For a relatively heavy street car, build with more torque in mind rather than maximum horsepower. Not only will it be more pleasant to live with on the street, but it is torque that will plant your backside firmly in the seat and put the ever lasting grin on your face. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #8 – August 26, 2012, 10:03:51 AM Quote from: Driverguy;396659 Why is it that the 5.0 is weak but the 5.7 is stronger, if they're both ford Windsor blocks? There is something like 60-70Lbs more iron in the 5.8 block, the roller 5.0 was basically cheapened by cutting weight everywhere possible... Older flat tappet 5.0 blocks weigh 20-25 lbs more and probably live at 500Hp for short intervals...There are some good aftermarket blocks out there that can be bored & stroked to around 370Cu in(that's 6.0L)and handle 600Hp but they aren't cheap... A 5.8 is a snug fit and require some different pieces(headers, accessory brackets) but the only real issue is hood clearance, most intakes will require a hood scoop... Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #9 – August 26, 2012, 10:11:28 AM Quote from: Crazy88;396662If you are even going to contemplate that much horsepower, I would recommend a solid block, either a Dart Sportsman or World Products Man O' War. Follow this with a forged and well balanced rotating assembly. Probably meant to add: With an increased stroke & bore for a 347/363 CI. Then it can do this! ;)Quote from: Crazy88;396662For a relatively heavy street car, build with more torque in mind rather than maximum horsepower. Not only will it be more pleasant to live with on the street, but it is torque that will plant your backside firmly in the seat and put the ever lasting grin on your face. ;) Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #10 – August 26, 2012, 11:16:11 AM Wont happen without a block FAILURE. The higher RPM needed to accomplish 450+ is way to stressful for that block. 400 MAX. You will need at least a DART BLOCK for reliability. And with the poor flow rates of the heads achieving over 450 is going to hard m and expensive !! Those engines just dont breathe good at all !! Just a thought!!! Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #11 – August 26, 2012, 12:42:48 PM Im shooting for the 450 mark with my 306 but it will have boost. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #12 – August 26, 2012, 01:43:22 PM Quote from: Driverguy;396653I've had a torn down 5.0 HO sitting in the garage since last october, and it's time I started doing SOMETHING to it. I had in my mind I wanted about 450-500hp out of it...no NOS, no supercharger. I heard a lot of different things in other forums-some say its nuts, you cant do it, some say you can, some say you need a supercharger or stroker, and others say if you DO get that much out of it, the block will end up cracking. I WAS going to do a 347, but a local builder told me its a bad idea, because it will just break. Here's what I was thinking:You can get 500 hp out of a stock bottom end, but it won't last if you beat on it. Also, as mentioned, getting that much NA will be undrivable and also will not last long. Also, if any builder tells you that a 347 will blow up, I'd get the shag out of there and never go back. Lots of guys are running 347, 331, and other stroker packages. I'd also not reasonably expect any kind of big power like that to be reliable with a stock block. In short, why spend 10 grand on internals and run it in a 50 dollar block. Get a Ford Racing block or even one of those trick 4 bolt boss blocks and build with that. Just my opinion.. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #13 – August 26, 2012, 04:51:00 PM Alright...I guess I should lower my goal to that of around 400-420, something like that lol. As 86 T-bird mentioned...I wanted my build to rival the new 5.0 coyote mustang, because they're running 400+ STOCK, but I guess the modular engine is a more solid structure. And yes, I'd also thought about an aftermarket block. I'm guessing they're build stronger to handle dragsters, but on that note I don't have dragster cash. I read the other day about this budget build for some muscle car mag, they got 398hp and only put in a grand for internals...so with my set up I mentioned I could probably get the 400 mark easily. Another easy question; is it worth boring my motor .030 over, or should I leave it stock? Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #14 – August 26, 2012, 05:01:50 PM Oh, and also, I was planning on staying with an AOD, freshly rebuilt of course...will that suffice? Quote Selected
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