[SIZE="5"]***************EDIT 29sep07- go directly to post #50 and 49 for final draft. Everything prior to post 49 is fyi only.[/SIZE]
For asking sake, I'd do one of a 83-86, then all the T/c's, then 87-88 cars. Should cover all the bases
generally speaking, i dont see why there would be much of a difference ,, i never took a close look at the tc charge but id recon they are duplicates.
what was your issue?
Mine, I forgot to hook up a wire and it's still not charging. That and my battery light is still on.
The difference is that older cars originally had an external regulator. Still an easy install, though - you just disconnect the external regulator entirely, run the green/red stripe to the 3G's regulator plug as shown in your diagram, and wire the rest as shown.
That diagram looks familiar, BTW - almost looks like one I made up a while ago:
(http://www.foxthundercats.com/tech/wiringdiagrams/3Ginstall.jpg)
:D
Carm, on the Black with orange, is it from the battery to the alt, or from the black and orange wire already in the car to the battery. Thats where I got lost at. I just don't wana hook it to the wrong place
The black wire with orange stripe is already in the car. I dunno about external regulator alternators, but the 2G found in 86-88's has that black wire in a plug on the alt instead of bolted to a stud. There are actually two black/orange wires in that plug, but they are spliced together a few inches back in the harness. Ford decided it would be better to split the current between two terminals instead of one to prevent overheating and possibly a fire. Didn't work. Even with two terminals they're pr0ne to fire.
If you use a large enough wire (6 gauge or better) from the output stud of the alternator to the battery you don't really need to connect that black/orange wire at all (which is why I put "optional" in the diagram). I did it anyway - it's there, and it doesn't take a lot of effort to put a ring terminal on it...
I don't have a pic of the setup in my current car, but here it is in my old '87 Sport (the alternator isn't fully bolted in in the pic - the top bolt is out and the alt is rotated out to where the air cleaner would be to make showing the wiring easier).
(http://www.foxthundercats.com/tech/3gwiring.jpg)
You can see the original black/orange wire attached to the stud (approaching it from the bottom) as well as the 6-gauge wire (approaching the stud from the top, with loom on it). You can also see the aluminum filings from where I had to grind a bit off the bracket to fit the physically larger 3G into the bracket.
Note that in this pic I don't have the yellow regulator wire looped directly to the output lug on the alternator, as in the wiring diagram above. That's because, IIRC, I made that diagram up for a 1G (external regulator) to 3G swap. When you've got the 2G alt you can leave the yellow wire as it is and only loop the white/black wire to the "S" terminal on the alternator body
So just this then, for my 84 atleast...(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/84fila/3Ginstall.jpg)
I dont have a small yellow wire, but a orande and blue one. and insted of the big red wire you have on there, I used the yellow/white wire from the tarus on there.
Looks good to me
Aight, have it perminatly mounted tomorow after I scrounge up a coil
Is doing the yellow wire like above recommended?
I'm getting a huge overcharging state with my alternator, so I got it replaced and the replacement overcharges exactly the same. The voltage sensing wire reads the same voltage as the output (up to 15.1v(!), with the minimum around 14.6 unless all accessories are on, electric fan, at idle) so I'm assuming I need to ditch NAPA's alternators (lifetime warranty/replacement) for a good PA Performance one. Ignition on wire is a little lower, but not much. I double-checked the wiring and its wired up right (both by color and pin/wire testing with multimeter), but why does it seem like perhaps its regulating on the ignition wire?
The yellow wire should be connected directly to battery voltage, and that BAT terminal is the closest place to get it. Ford regulators switch on the ground side, and that yellow wire provides the positive to the field. It has nothing to do with sensing - that's what the white/black wire does.
Are you sure it's overcharging? 14.6-15.1 is a bit high, but not completely out of the question, especially if you've got a dirty connection somewhere (corroded battery terminal, f'rinstance), or a weak battery (if the battery is struggling to take a charge the alt will put out more power).
It is highly possible your multimeter is reading high - I've got one that shows 17 volts on my 13.8 volt regulated power supply (I've checked it with other meters and it shows 13.8 volts)
And, of course, it's highly possible that your NAPA alternators were both . They use very cheap regulators, and multiple failures is not uncommon (just ask Eric)
For the record, here's the factory wiring diagram for a 3G as installed in a '95 Mustang. The diagrams Scott and I posted above are essentially the same thing, but much easier to read:
LOL Don't get me started. Between alternators and Optima batteries, I don't know whose head to start bashing in first...
Yeah, I can post this stuff on the site. Thanks for the effort guys!
My multimeter's accurate, as is the digital one I added to the dash that got me seeing these numbers (Minus the voltage loss I get on the ground wire to the dash-mounted one, need to run a new ground - the wires read ~0.2v less than at the battery). No resistance between my alternator and battery (0 gauge ran), with very little from alternator out to yellow wire (will have to take a measurement again, but it was next to nothing). As far as I know, its either a py regulator or a bad battery, and both have been replaced with no improvement. Wonder if someone would buy my "lifetime NAPA" alternator w/receipt(s) from me for like $150 on craigslist :p Went for $250 or so, worth 1/10 that at idle output.
Oh, and I'm assuming a PA Performance one won't bog down the motor as much either. The NAPA guy was surprised when the "bad" alternator kept killing his machine, so he called in a replacement. The new one barely ran, pulling 10+hp from it at full output (143A or so). The new one seems to have less output at idle then the old (voltage dips more frequently) and at startup, for the first couple minutes, I get like 15.3v, before it drops to 14.8 for some time. Afterwards deciding whether it wants to give me more or less which seems to depend on whether I'm in stop/go driving (stays about the same or drops a little) or on the freeway (slowly climbs back up to 15v, old one also did this, reason I replaced it).
i was gonna reply in a rather detailed way but you seem to know what you doing as far as accounting for the voltage drop across your connections and compensating for that in your reading.
you also said your battery was new and that is kinda funny as well.
ill babble a little here and you reply,,,,,,,
when you turn on your meter to dc/v, what does it say with the leads not touching?
measure how much """"""AC"""""" ouput you have coming out of your alternator. take that reading times .707 and that might be your problem. residual AC due to a not so perfect world regulator might be slightly bubbling your battery and also causing a slight high charge.
I had an alt once that had about 2v ac output at the exact time when it was running about 16vdc ouput at idle. Cooked the battery to say the least but it did take some time.
im gonna venture to say that your getting too much residual AC ouput due to a diode make/brand/connection issue that is isolated to the suppier(s).
I dont know how your getting it but some piece part is causing it.
are you running an inverter for any ac outlets in your car? anytime there is a device in your car prducing AC (such as the head end of your alternator) or an inverter (dc-ac), there are always some form of diode responsible for this. If any one of the many go bad, you will get ac feedback.
ever notice that big ass diode near the eec test connector? ask about what that things purpose is.
IIRC,, there are a couple (maybe one) diode in the harness loom near the starter relay or alt ouput harness ect along the side with the battery. check that out cause i think i remember one being in that harness and if its shorted,, you know the deal.
i hate things that are nearly broke but not exactly broke yet!!!!!! good luck.
eric
ill do i write up in my DIY link as well. You or someone else please check this step by step below and make sure I did not forget a critical step.
Multimeter leads not touching = 1, touching = 00.2 (Actron CP7674, not sure why its reading 0.2 now, it was 0.0 last time I used it. I did leave it on overnight though, battery may be finally dying.). I don't use anything AC powered, adapters or such. I'll give the AC readout a try. Have a local supplier of PA Perf alts here in Beaverton, OR (Krazy Koncepts - they have a 9 second (997hp) Mustang) so likely to pick one up. The fact that NAPA had to "order" an "older" replacement alt from another store (only one in the area) because they couldn't replace it with the newer ones/manufacturer they had in stock (also 3G 130A) for some stupid reason is what makes me want to ditch them all together. I can only assume there's a reason for going with a new manufacturer, and I get stuck on the bad end of it all.
The original alt is 2 years old, the replacement is a month old. I put it in and still had the same problems there in the parking lot but they had no way of getting another replacement for me that day so I figured I'd drive it away and try dealing with another location that may be a bit more customer service oriented. It was funny, they tested it in the car and "everything checked out fine". I pulled it out and threw it on their machine. this is when they agreed to replace it. The guy testing it on the car didn't know anything other than ~14.5v (which it was doing as the car had been running for 15 minutes, giving it time to drop down in voltage before it would begin to rise back up again over the next couple hours). All but one of their employees were clueless.
Of course, the PAPerf will probably put out twice the amperage at idle than the NAPA one...electric fan on DCControl comes on at idle and my voltage will start to drop to 13v, along with all lights dimming inside and out. Old one only did this with all accessories on, not only the fan.
Ummmm...I'm getting ~33.5v AC? That doesn't seem too right. I can probe an actual 24v AC wall adapter and get 24v AC though...also works near perfect for setting amplifier gains. Wall outlet gives me 119.6v.
im wondering if your fan isnt spiking the regulator. the sudden demand for current might be the deal.
It shouldn't be doing anything, being on a DCControl setup. Also, I only went out there and probed it with the car cold/no fan running so it shouldn't affect anything as far as I know. I can force it on and test again if that gives any useful information. Not sure if I can completely disconnect the fan controller easily though. 33v seems like quite a bit getting through.
Edit: No change with the fan/controller disconnected from the rest of the electrical system. Everything else is stock, other than relays and such for lights, single wire ran down to the mini starter, etc (no big electrical addons/draw like the fan).
...made sure I wouldn't lose my receipt and have to go on a hunt for it before...and now I can't find it. Must have hid it too well. Even if I get a replace, need to do SOMETHING with the NAPA warranty.
Sure enough, tried the battery out of the 64 tbird and tried hooking my cables up directly to another car's electrical system (bypassing battery in my car) and the same condition happens with ~15v DC/33v AC.
So which alternators do you guys use anyways? I've only heard much about PA Performance, not much else. Just curious.
I have a 3G from a 2000 3.0 Tarus. Works fine for me
Manufacturer/remanufacturer though?
I know someone that had a bad PA Performance alternator right out of the box. Really I don't think it matters from whom you buy one...what does count is customer service and warranty. Right now I'm running a Bosch reman from Pep Boys...I believe it's ~$175 US. So far so good, much better than their basic remans (Pro Start?).
I'm running a Wilson reman in mine (I work in a shop that does Wilson rebuilds - what can I say?)
Got the alt replaced (again). Sure enough, the mobile tester didn't find anything wrong with the electrical system, but the machine inside did and its replaced again. Thinking the alt may have damaged my battery, I had it tested indoors and after 10 minutes it spit out an error, saying to replace the battery (they didn't have the error code book?! It lost 150 cranking amps after the charge test)...so I picked up a "cheap" smaller battery to run while I can get my 65 replaced under warranty (Costco...should I upgrade to an Optima for difference in price?).
I would. Optima are good batterys. What I'm getting for mine as soon as money can be spaired
Okay, realized that Costco doesn't test the batteries, just take it back like most of their other merchandise and give a cash refund. Cheapest I can find a Yellow Top is $160 up the road.
Sorry for getting off topic in this thread, but I don't even know what it was started for :dunno: What emails? It seems like this was meant as a private message or something.
For all those that don't know, what can you get a 3G from. And what of those have the different "levels" of power?
94/95 mustang 5.0, 94-04 v6 mustang, and 3.8L taurus'. those are 130 amp.
Mine is from a 2000 3.0 Whats that?
3.0l?
Yeah, a 3.0 Tarus. what 3g is that, the 95 amp? And where can you get the 200 off of?
that one isnt going to work. the bolt pattern is too wide to fit in the bracket. it is a 130 amp though. i dont know if there is a vehicle out there that has a 200 amp, except maybe a DPS car.
I don't think 200A came on any factory car, maybe police vehicles. The warranty of PAPerformance's 200A sucks too, the "130" (160A) one has a lifetime warranty for the original owner though. Was set on the 200 until I found that out. Being able to warranty them through PepBoys makes the decision easier - no shipping charges for warranty.
Fit on my car just fine. But I have a different setup then you guys do. Would a 3.8 be better for this car?
what does your bracket look like? i used one from a 92? 3.0L and it was too wide. if it fits, then your good! no need to find another one.
I have old school, serp and V belt setup.
The Alt itse;f
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/84fila/000_2221.jpg)
The alt in the car, and it's bracket
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/84fila/000_2205.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/84fila/000_2207.jpg)
your not off topic,, your just a thread hijacker,,,,,,,,:D :D :D :D
my comment was some pm's i got on 3g conversions. Ive never done this yeat but i think its farily simple and i know i can help others if they need it. I just figured the Coolcats.net website might wanna upload the "before and after" drawing in the tech section.
on your problem,,, it seems to be interesting that you intalled a different battery with the same results.
get a new alt and before you do anything,,,, even start it,,,,
remove any and all fuses that are not critical to the engine running.
see if the problem occures again.
remove every stinking fuse even if you lose your dash, interior lights, ect ect. drive it around for a while on that day and then see if the charge voltage is lower.
if it is not,, start putting in fuses one at a time until you see the problem show back up again,,, there might be a faulty wiring harness in your car. isolating it to the circuit is what needs to happen next.
I only had my battery tested as I was unsure how it was doing after that alternator, and it failed. I did try other batteries, but I assume the alternator being bad was the cause of it not working right on them. I doubt the battery went bad between the few hours of tearing one alt out and putting a new one in, just over the 6 weeks of having to use that alt.
So it went from alternator with bad regulator, alternator with shorted diodes or something destroying part of my battery (was fine when I had it tested before that alt), to a new alternator but me not wanting to use it on the bad battery due to possibility of it killing the new alt. So I bought their cheapest battery that would fit to get me out of there and so far, voltages seem stable. My gauge inside the car now reads 14.6v on start and drops down to 14.40-41 with very rare drops to 14.35 (I have it regrounded now, its close to the voltage at the battery) with exception of...12.55v at idle with all accessories on and electric fan running. Keep in mind my idle is set to like 700-800rpm's (factory gauge shows ~650-750).
Drove 30 miles so far and all's good. Just need to move the digital multimeter/radio/clock memory wire back to the battery side of the car on a fusible link (didn't think about it also being able to show fuse status between the alt and battery - its attached to a fuse block near the alternator).
All's good now, have my $50 back from Costco too. Lost some volume on my stereo though (have to turn up to ~42 instead of where it was at ~34 before).
edit: Didn't think about it before, but someone mentioned (after coming back to me a couple hours later) to try flipping the + and - multimeter probes around to get rid of the DC readings and sure enough, clean AC reading from my multimeter now. New alt/battery gives me a 00.0 reading. 14.42v DC at the battery and 14.39v at the dash now.
I think you are talking about the arc suppression diodes for the A/C clutch magnet and the starter relay.
They provide a path for the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field so it does not arc across the contact that opens the circuit.
In the case of the starter relay, that would be the ignition switch.
If a relay has a polarity requirement for hooking it up, it has this diode built into the assembly.
bump,, got a pm on this very over asked question.
Can we sticky this?
PPPLLLLEEEAAASSSSEEEEE
Awesome Thread! Great Work!
I'll definatly be looking out for a 3G at the junkyard on the next trip. There was so many tauruses last time i went, It was making my head spin. :hick:
Need to clarify the years though, is it Any 3.8 Taurus~Or just certain years?
Playing around schucks online, It looks like 90-95 3.8's had the 130amp all with the same bracket style.
However the 96-99 Still 130amp-3.0l though, And looks like it has the same mounting style?, just bulkier?
2000up is a whole redesign looks like~100-110 amp.
hehe, Schucks has crown vic police interceptor alternators ('95ish) and they are rated at 130amp as well. :hick:
High power alternators with wiring kits (http://"http://rjminjectiontech.com/?p=6")
I found this site quite a while ago, they have some pretty neat stuff on here !!
Be careful which engines you look at.
I grabbed a 3G from a '90s Lincoln Continental with the 3.8 V6. It won't even come close to fitting in my 2.3 engine.
It just sits in my garage, now. I may have to throw it away.
3.8 taurus's got a the 8" case, 3.0 cars had the 7" case..
post forwarded to public link
post forwarded to public link
this diagram came in handy thanks to everyone involved with making it possible :)
Well, installed a new 200 amp 3G alternator a couple days ago on my TC. It was a bit different as the 2.3 is not in the car but a 5.0 and of course the majority of the wires are not the standard color code. Anyway, I followed the 2.3 install diagram posted here as I still have the 2.3 wiring setup for my alternator. At first I followed the 5.0 diagram and this proved to be wrong for my setup.
The 2.3 install diagram was right on the money, got it all switched over and hooked up and everything worked perfectly. Was running 14.4 to 14.6 at idle and around 13.8 to 14.0 under full load (everything was on, stero, amp, lights, fog lights, heater, windshield wipers, turn signal, dome light and other electronics I have hooked up). The one thing I noticed was I was idling high around 1200 rpms, got to checking and found that the electric choke was hooked up to the "S" (Stator) side of the old regulator. As the old regulator was not being used anymore no power was getting to the choke. I spliced this wire into the "S" terminal on the 3G alternator and all was fine.
Well, yesterday on the way home from work the voltmeter in the car starting going nuts!!!! It was reading 14.6, 15.2, 15.6, 15.9, 14.5, 13.4, 12.9, 14.2, 15.3, 15.7, 12.9, 12.4 and then settled at 12.2 and slowly dropped to 11.8 by the time I go home. I checked all my connections and fuse and all was good. Come to find out I got a faulty alternator so, send it back to DB Electrical and wait for a new one.
All in all, the 2.3 diagram is right on the money, one piece of advise would be to change (if it is hasn't been done yet) your ground wire on the body to a 4AWG or 2AWG wire may save you a lot of headache later on. Also, the brown wire with the orange stripe is only 10 gauge, you may want to consider changing that to a 4AWG wire also, it also may save you a lot of headache later on.
Will post more later when I get the new alternator in and hooked up.
Scott can you put that picture back up with the diagram? (you removed it back in april?)If you don't have it I'll try and dig it up, I think its on my computer at home.
Kingcars was asking about it in his thread.
I have to add some input to this thread - I just had my alternator covered under warranty again and the replacement has the same NAPA part number, BUT the lower bolt hole was smaller than my bolt. I had to enlarge the hole two drill sizes. This may come up for some people when doing the 3G install.
im not sure whats up with that either,,,, your talking about the pivit bolt?
I had to inlarge one a couple years ago and I also got it from napa.
More recently the one for the 351,, same thing. IMHO, I think its an interpertation on drawings that get incorrectly dospoogeented by a thousanth here or there.
I had that happen.I drilled it out,ran the bolt through with a nut and lock washer,done.
What voltages do you guys see with the 3G? On start, this new one is giving me 15.05v where my old one that died gave me 14.7v on startup. The old one would actually settle down to 14.4-14.5v unlike the two prior warrantied ones that would creep up to 15v on long highway drives. The voltage wire going back into the alternator shows this same voltage so it isn't a voltage drop thing. Having a digital voltmeter in the dash that takes its reading from a 4awg central dash-fed wire, I see all the dips and spikes all the time.
I ran across this kit while checking out PA Performances alternators..
http://www.pa-performance.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=75
Will this kit work on my 86? I am thinking of doing it this way so that if I ever sell the car I can swap it back real fast.
are the alts from a v6 mn12 bird or cat 3.8L usable on ours? as 3g upgrades?
Will a 4 gauge wire work from the back of the altenator to starter solenoid instead of 6??? Also the 4 or 6 runs straight thru both correct? On the diagram for the 3,8 it looks like the wire gets smaller???
......another batch of info I find useful............and yes it's another long read! LOL
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2679.0.html
will update original with better looking drawing to include all the good feedback
ok question, I am gong to put a 3g in, but right now motor is out, but I have been doing the wiring getting things ready, I have the yellow wire that has the fuseable links tied into it, I have not uncovered loom to see the black and orange wire talked about in earlier post, do you have to undue those or will hit hurt just connect the yellow wire with ring terminal to the battery side of solenoid? I was little un clear on that part.
the way you have that worded is confussing me.
if you look at the drawings,, and if your able to save the drawing to a file.. then you can zoom in on the text... and read those embeded instructions..
or press "shift" and then with your mouse wheel you "scroll" in or out.
the drawings show you what you should have before and after,, i owe this thread a better drawing.
I don't know if this will help. Along with the previous directions this should make the job easier. I just hope I don't burn my car down! I'll post the 2.3 diagram up too. Just gimme a minute.
Here's the charge/power distribution diagram for 2.3 turbos. The blurred text on the bottom left hand side is a ground to the engine G212.
there are about 4 variations depending on year to the 2.3 on this wiring diagram,, perhaps only 3 but each one offers a different obsticle.. gotta be careful doing the 3G on the 2.3L.
The diagram came out of an 87 specific tbird/cougar service manual. I hope that will narrow it down a little.
i am using the brackets from a 92 mustang, what 3g alt will fit with that bracket set up?
try not to post in this jerry, its a sticky for reference to the original topic.