Hi folks, I'm hardly the first person in here to talk about this, but I'm rather keep to try shoving a 4.6 DOHC under the bonnet of my 1988 Thunderbird. It currently has the 3.8 V6 and I'd love to try something new in there. It's hard finding info on just what I'd have to do, what mods I'd have to make to the brakes and front suspension etc, so I'd like to get some info and be pointed int eh right direction. Has anyone successfully done this? I'd appreciate any info on this. Thanks guys, James.
As far as I know there are 3 here currently doing the swap.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?33763-My-85-TBird
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?32630-T-Bird-Resto-Mod-UPDATE-5-9-14&highlight=
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?18403-88-Cougar-XR7-4-6L-3V-update-12-27-2011-Engine-trans-and-TC-rear-end-in
The 4.6 4V is 300-320hp stock. You can build a 350hp 5.0 HO for less to around what it would cost to swap a 4.6 4V into your car. The only 4.6 4V I would swap in would be an 03-04 Cobra engine. If you're going na and want a DOHC engine there is really only one choice: 5.0 Coyote. Blows the 4.6 4V out of the water na or supercharged.
Id do a carbed one if it was me. I have no want for a obd2 system.
Given that he's in California, I'd say that a carb is about as likely to appear under his "bonnet" as an intelligent person at a justin beaver show...or any other artist of such ilk, including but not limited to kanya, florida georgia line, or any such pseudo-pop/top 40 shiznit. :D
Just like buying a car...look past the gloss, the shine, and gee, whiz! doodads, and find the shiznit that really revs your engine. My sincere apologies if bieber, kanye, or the like...really rev your engine. There is no hope.
Back to topic. If I were going to swap in a 4.6, I'd either do a DOHC swap, ala Termi Cobra, or at least something like a Mark VII, etc.
But why limit yourself...go for a Navi 5.4 mill...... ;)
I'm not looking for huge power, but a Mark VIII was actually what I was thinking. They're not too expensive on E-bay, though Modesto isn't exactly the best place to find local junk yards, plus I don't have a pickup truck or other suitably large cargo type transport vehicle. And good job on spotting my usage of the Queen's English, I'm an Aussie transplant. I figured the Mark VIII engine would be a decent bet, I'm just nervous of what I'd have to do to the fuel system, brake and front suspension. Then there's the drive shaft, transmission. Gives me the horrors. Honestly if I had my druthers I'd put in a 3.7 Duratec V6 with the matching 6-speed transmission which goes with it, but I'm not made of money. Shame, I'd like 305 HP with 35 MPG highway.
Actually the MK VIII are 280Hp @ 5750 RPM, Torque is 285Ft Lb @ 4500 RPM...
The '93 & '94 use OBD-I...
True. I was thinking of the 96-01 Cobra and 03-04 Mach 1 4.6 DOHC
Either way I'd rather have a 5.0 Coyote instead.
If you are concerned with a budget build then stick to the 302W family. Its been done so many times and parts are cheap. I'm with thunderjet302 on the 5.0 Coyote motor, if I was going to do a modular motor it would be that one. Now where is my lottery ticket....
Darren
My worthless two cents..
IF cost is the concern, stay with a good 5.0. Second, why waste your time with a "small" (cid that is) Coyote or DOHC engine, I would (am) installing a stroker Boss 429 engine in mine. Just me..
Well, not everyone has 10,000 dollars to build a stroked Boss '9.
If I did, I'd have a force-fed 427w, but definitely something from the "small block" Windsor....why lug around the penalty of 250-300 pounds of extra weight? Sure, sure...Boss 514 sounds intimidating as hell, and it'd would be fast, and it would cost a hell of a lot more. Especially if you had to start from scratch and get block and heads, too. You can still find a 5.0 or a 351 in nearly anyone's backyard, a 429, not so much, and likely not a Boss block at all. Of course, a windsor based block in which to make a 427" combo is also going to be aftermarket, but still, it's cheaper than a 385 series block.
Any pics of your build? I DO like looking at big block foxes, and am weighing on putting a 460 into my '84 notch.
I guess I should be more detailed in my answer. Yes, a W based engine is cheaper, more common and best bang for the buck. As for building a Boss Nine engine compared to a Coyote or 4.6 DOHC its about the same. What I mean about the same is by using the garden variety 429-460 block with Kasse heads. Coyote engines (new) are around 10-12K, used maybe around 5-6K. So, if you equate the cubic inch, and horsepower difference, you're way ahead with the Boss 429. Natural aspired Boss Nine engines are common in the 700-900 HP range. NO Coyote or 4.6 DOHC is even close. Ok, yes, I am old school. As for photos its still all a matter of building/acquiring parts at this stage, so no pics at the moment. I will keep everyone abreast of the project.
Well....a better coyote makes somewhere around 400 horsepower. Short of a honest to god '69 or '70 Boss, NO stock 429/460 made those power numbers.
And of course, throw twins and a tune on even a stock Coyote, and you'll see a grand's worth of horses. Don't forget the GT500 KR had close to 700, with plenty more left in the stable.
I love the Boss 429, epsecially a '70...hands down, my ultimate dream car, BUT....
if I had to pick one, and I could never have another Mustang for the rest of my days, well, I'd probably pick the 2013 Boss 302. It turns, it burns, it's fast, aero, and looks good. make mine Grabber Blue, and thank you!
The Boss 429 is just too finicky for me..I'd want to drive it every day, and likely the frequent attention to the exotic Ford hemi killer would soon wear me down on it.
No argument on your statement, as an old 69-70 vintage Boss 429 IS finicky. However, I am referring to a modern Kasse Boss Nine engine. Now, IF you want to compare apples to apples the Boss still wins. Natural aspired to natural aspired, it still goes to the Boss. Ok, lets add the power adders as you mentioned, still hands down to the Boss. The only reason the Coyote and 4.6 are in more demand today is they made more of them, are most likely to be in a certain class of racing, and are more available to the average guy. Don't get me wrong, I love all muscle cars, old and new, Fox bodies and older Mustangs (esp 1969 Fastbacks). So, I do get your point. As for me I am doing something other than the norm. Just me..
I like the DOHC because it gets pretty good power, and I'm a real nerd for DOHC efficiency. Plus naturally aspirated, that engine in that size car would likely get good mileage. I'm hoping better than what the V6 gets at around 25 MPG. Also I'm kind of afraid of the costs and complications with doing ports etc with the 5.0 Windsor, especially if it'll kill my MPGs. If I had the money and resources I'd put in the Duratec 3.7 V6 with the Mustang 6-speed tranny. 305 HP and 31 MPG rather impresses me. Anyway I'd like to at least look at a couple comprehensive write ups for swapping the Mark VIII motor, just to see what I'd need to do as far as the suspension and fuel system and mounting brackets etc. Google just hasn't been so kind. Found a video from a guy who did the swap in his '97, but no details or schematics etc. Even if I eventually decide to abandon the project and just fix the current engine and rebuild the transmission, I really want to at least get the info. I was thinking stick in the axles from a Turbo Coupe and interior from a 5.0 with a floor shifter. Otherwise sticking in a 5.0, especially going simple with stock would give me nearly identical power to the V6 but leaden the handling with the extra weight and probably lose some MPGs.
Uh......$10k for a Kaase Boss 9 ?!? When my Boss and I checked into a Boss9 from them for his Boss9 clone ...... it was just over $25k. Granted that was for a complete carb to pan engine. If it was only 10k one of those would be waiting on the run stand.
A Boss Nine can be built for around 8K..IF you can assemble your own engine and know where to find your parts. The most expensive components are of course the heads. Kaase does sell complete ready to go cylinder heads for around $4,500 new. Used versions can be had for a lot less. Blocks, cranks, rods, etc are your garden variety 429-460 stuff. For the 25K you mentioned you can go with the Carter alloy block/Kaase Boss Nine heads for a newer version (and better) than the vintage SK 494 Boss 429 Can-Am engine.
I like the efficiency of DOCH (or modern OHV engines [aka GM]), but by the time you swap in a cheap mod motor, you'll never make your money back in gas savings. The other draw of the Coyote or 3.7 V6 is the drivability aspect. You're simply not going to get a 5.0/5.8 making the power of a Coyote while having the same drivability. Variable Valve Timing is a magical thing! :D
It's amazing how far OEM engine lines have progressed quality and technology-wise. A run of the mill engine is essentially blue-printed and machined to tolerances exceeding most speed shops.
Just some issues to keep in mind concerning a Coyote or 4.6 swap: lack of bottom end torque. I have several friends with 5.0 Coyotes and 4.6s and the bottom end torque is not exactly like a 5.0/5.8 Windsor wedge engine. Generally speaking, DOHC/SOHC engines are like vintage Boss 302s. You gotta wait for the rpms for power. For street driving you want torque…my worthless two cents...
A stock 5.0 Coyote will spank the out of a stock 5.0 HO/302. "Lack of low end torque" or not. Just rev it and don't be a wussy. I don't get this "it has no low end torque" thing. Does everyone never rev their engine above 3000rpm or only drive with 1/4 throttle around town? Cars got a red line on the tachometer for a reason ;).
You are correct, a "stock" Coyote will beat a "stock" 5.0. That was not my concern, the lack of low end was. Personally, I am very familiar with high RPM engines, as I used to own and race a 1970 T/A Boss 302 Mustang, so I get your point. Now please understand mine. MOST drivers on the street won't wait for the RPMs to come on for acceleration. Its torque that matters more for the average driver. Just my worthless two cents...
Crossboss has a very valid point - hell, if it weren't for low end torque a stock Birdcat would be pretty much undrivable instead of just plain annoying...
True but go out and drive a 5.0 Coyote powered Mustang. You'll find it is not lacking in low end torque. DOHC and variable valve timing make power from idle to redline. A blown 4.6 4V will walk pretty much any blown 302, unless you have an aftermarket block. At that point we're not talking stock anymore.
If the OP wants to swap a stock 4.6 4V out of a Mark VIII into his car I wouldn't do it. He'd be much better off swapping a built 5.0 in. Again the only "worth it" mod motor swap is a 5.0 Coyote. Pricey but a 435hp Coyote is going to be a lot more civilized/driveable than a 435hp 5.0 Windsor.
Putting a DOHC 4.6 or Coyote 5.0 in a fox body car is not something for someone of a faint heart and light wallet. It can be done on a "budget". Ford makes a kit to control the Coyote motor in a vintage car application but it is around $1,500 and the tune sucks so add another $500 for a custom dyno tune. So right now if you find a Coyote motor in a salvage yard you could probably negotiate getting the engine and trans for let's say $7,500. You are just south of $10,000 and have not begun to install it. Even if you got the wiring harnesses and stock PCM with it you would have to deal with figuring out the wiring and the ABS and traction control is all part of that PCM so some custom tuning would be necessary.
I'm pretty sure a 5.0 Windsor motor with mass air (after all it's California) that will meet emissions with a trans of your choice (T-5 or a 4R70W), wiring harnesses, and mass air conversion could be done for about $5,000. This would include chip and tune. I'm thinking about 225 rwhp on stock parts with the HO conversion. If you really watch your $$$ and shop the for sale sections here and on the Mustang sites you could easily get past the 300 rwhp mark for under $7,500.
Granted it's not the Coyote or DOHC mod motor hp levels but it's definitely less of an undertaking. Don't get me wrong a Coyote motor under the hood of one of these cars would look awesome but at the price it would take to do it right would not be for the faint of heart when it comes to spending money even if you can turn all the wrenches yourself and wire it yourself.
When my Coupe had the 306 in it and it had 318 rwhp / 332 ft-lbs of torques I could consistancy beat stock 5.0 Coyote Mustangs. I'd get one or two lengths on them a shift. So weight plays a factor in it between those two cars but build a T-Bird or Cougar wisely and you can put it on a stock Coyote powered Mustang all day long.
Darren
I could see that with the 5.8, but not a stock 5.0. A stock Coyote produces more torque than a stock 5.0 at every rpm from idle on up. I'd imagine a 400 hp 5.0 doesn't beat out a Coyote at low rpms either, but haven't found any dyno plots that go below 2500rpm. DOHC engines with VVT gives you superior volumetric efficiency compared to non-optimized (Windsor) OHV engines. That's the whole point of VVT, it gives you the ability to have a torque cam at lower rpm and a power cam at higher rpm. Windsor motors don't compare favorably with modern DOCH motors of the same displacement.
But the Teksid block used in the Mk VIII 32V weighs around 85Lbs and is said to withstand 1000Hp, that'd handle a big ole huffer(yeah I know this ain't happnin')...
Still with a early parts Mk VIII(OBD-I) would be similar to a 2.3T to 5.0 swap, hang a 2800-3200 stall in it and 3:55 cogs, it'd surprise a few people... With a $1000 parts car and Bird in hand, I can see total DIYS cost under $2500, maybe closer to $2K...
I would have to say I disagree but this would be just what I have seen price wise and the way I would build it. Salvaged 93-94 Mark VIII motor would be around $800 salvaged all day long but hopefully it still runs and the OP is willing to just bolt it up and go without going through it (would be a mistake in my book). Then you will need a transmission (auto or manual are about the same cost when you are not starting with either), stall converter, PCM, engine harness (again dealing with the wiring but doable), and figuring out the engine mounts. Exhaust would also be included as well as having to upgrade the front suspension (just springs just springs for the V8 motor). So all in without going through the motor I would say a bare minimum of $4,000 and more like $5,000 but I like my installs clean and not rigged so someone might get it for $3,500 but I would not own it.
So now you have a Mark VIII motor with less hp than a Coyote motor or a DOHC 4.6 motor and most likely getting your ass handed to you by a $4,000 to $5,000 dollar 5.0 Windsor swap car. Again, the Mark VIII motor would be really cool under the hood and with a little more $$$ will make some hp but you have more weight across the nose than the 5.0 Windsor so you have to make more hp to make up for it.
Anyhow, its an argument for the ages as everyone has their opinion but I would put my N/A 351W car (I would even remove the bottles) up against a N/A 5.0 Coyote or N/A 4.6DOHC swap car any day of the week. Now if you go get a built N/A DOHC motor and up your build cost then please allow me to spend the same money on my Windsor...again the hp wars would continue especially when the LS guys show up in this thread and want to talk a Bowtie swap.
Overall whatever the OP does to get rid of the V6 it will be well worth it. I think for simplicity sake and time a 5.0 Windsor motor would be the way to go but if the OP has the time and the ability a DOHC or 5.0 Coyote motor would be bad ass under the hood.
Darren
The GM LS engine is a very good design. Now, a bit of trivia on GMs LS--the cylinder heads are almost a direct copy of a 1964 Ford 289 SK377 "Tall Port" prototype. Even the LS' bolt pattern is within 1 mm of the small block Ford, and physically WILL bolt onto the Windsor block! When we interviewed the Chevy engineers, they admitted "borrowing" the Ford design. Also, the LS block design, again was borrowed from the Ford FE and Chysler Hemi designs. Its like rock n roll, "we are all a bunch of beggars and thieves"
I'm a Ford guy, through and through, and then some.
But when Ford people say that GM stole, bought, borrowed, or were looking at the 5.0 windsor....they're full of shiznit. shiznit.
I even believed the rumor...till I looked at facts.
Yeah, the LS heads will bolt onto a 5.0/5.8....so what? Cleveland heads will too, with a bit of work.
Coincidence, nothing more.
The LS is a decent little engine, no argument, but it's only a well executed design...it's only taken GM what...50-some years to get it right? Ford had the Cleveland in the 60's and 70's....there are STILL die hard GM guys who get that glassy-eyed look, as if they've been huffing 110 high test and permatex fumes, and speak reverently of how badly a 351c Torino or some such whupped their ass on main street in 1971.
Also, share your info of these alleged chevy engineers who borrowed the design. I doubt that contractual agreements, and protocol would allow them to admit even if they had. Besides, as solid as the 5.0 has been, it's still basically a 60's design...that leads right back to the Cleveland heads. IF GM were to copy anything.....
There's also the rumor that Yates designed the LS heads...
Man, I want some of those guys have been smoking. It has got to be some good shiznit...like Charlie Daniels sings....the shiznit they smoked in 'Nam.
I got's connections, have seen '97 & '98 MK-VIII at auction go for $700-1000, earlier ones less... A buddy recently bought one of each, didn't have more than $1600/$1700 in the pair, both had around 110/115K mi... He used the '97 for some seat and interior electrical parts, resold the whole car for $800 to some guy who wanted the drive train for a street rod(orig guy was going to buy engine for $600, but Bubba offered him the whole car and he jumped on it)... Not sure what he got out of the '98, probably around $2200... Tells me he's happy when he makes a grand on vehicles that go out front(he's a small dealer)...
BTW he bought my white and red TC at auction, years back... Paid $1015 for my white and that was in '97, around four years later he bought the red for $430... I gave him a $200 on top for my white, but paid his cost for the red(did him a favor, don't remember what)
thunderbirdsport--
With all due respect, you are incorrect.
Prove me wrong with factual, verified information.
I've heard some pretty dumb shiznit about it too, everything from Mustang fools who say that Ford designed it, so that's reason enough to put it into a Mustang, up to the line that GM paid so much money to Ford for it, that GM ended up needing the bailouts while Ford was making serious bank.
It's all shiznite. It's a GM design, through and through. Yes, they likely had some Ford engines to poke around on while doodling on paper, but I can also assure you that the LS has a deep skirt block and other things not on a Windsor engine, or even on any one Ford engine in particular, at that.
Yes, there's only so much "new" once can dig up in a pushrod V8...pretty soon it's like a Glock....sooner or later, someone else will come up with a similar style, and then the nutswingers on both sides will call foul, ripped off idea, or claim that someone else copied a previous design.
Again, show me the proof....
Just so you know, I've read the drama from both GM and Ford boards, I was intrigued, so I dug a lot deeper, and found jack shiznit to prove that the LS is an out and out copy of any one engine design. Unless you count the number of cylinders, valves, heads, and spark plugs.
I've been incorrect before...I can handle being incorrect again. But I'll wager a 20 dollar bill I'm not wrong this time. ;)
If these things truly give you the horrors, then this probably isn't a swap you will want to do. Those are some of the most straight forward things you will run into.
Fuel. If the donor car is a returnless system, send the pcm in to have it set up for a return system, which is what your car already is. I am guessing that with a good pump the rest of the stock system will fuel a run of the mill DOHC 4.6. Also have any antitheft systems removed from the pcm. I am not sure but I think Ford went returnless in 1999 or 2000.
Brakes. You will need a hydro boost system. Get one from a sn95 mustang, also get the flca's, spindles and brakes. You will have to move the pin on the brake pedal arm up the appropriate amount and mount the hydro boost to line up with it. Use an adjustable proportioning valve for the rear brakes.
Front Suspension. I am using coil overs, otherwise do some searching and get a set of springs to suit the ride and height you want. It make take some trial and error to find the right spring.
Drive shaft. Plenty of places that make custom drive shafts. They will ask for the info they need to get it done.
Transmission. I would recommend the donor car route. Get the motor, trans, wiring and sensors, pcm, all from the same car. May need to make a custom trans mount, or an adjustable ford motorsport mount may do the trick.
K member. Again, get one from a sn95 mustang with a 4.6. Trim the lower mounts and relocate the holes. Use a 3/8-1/2" shim between the k member and rails at the upper bolt location.
Now it's bolted into the car and the real fun begins. Wiring, cruise control, air cond, exhaust, gauges, cooling. All of these things will need to be custom or need some sort of modifications. In my build thread I have or am working on solutions to all of these things. Depending on what you want these solutions may or may not work for you, that's the fun part, there is not one way it has to be done, and things often change many times before it's all said and done. Better yet until it's road worthy and tested it's not done.
That sums it up pretty well.
Thundersport--
I am sorry you don't like my answer, however facts are facts. Do you even know what an SK377 289 cylinder head looks like? Have you seen one? Not likely. Spoke to Ford engineers who actually designed this stuff? Possibly you haven't. I get my info directly from people I have been racing/engineers/friends from back in the day for 30 years. Please don't make hypercritical hearsay statements like "Yates designed the LS cylinder heads" also incorrect. And yes, the LS block IS a deep skirt Y design like the Ford FE and Chrysler Hemi. Please take note, I am not arguing your opinions, as we all have them.
Who is "we" and what were you interviewing them for?
I never thought I would have to post my resume on here..lol I am a motion picture/TV cameraman. "we" was the producers/production company I worked for when doing a show/archives for performance development segments a number of years ago. Quite possibly you may have seen older episodes of "Motor-Trend TV" and "Hot-Rod TV"
Uhhh, the MKVIII teksid engine is a ALL aluminum DOHC and it is close to the exact same weight as a stock 5.0. I'm going this route cause I like the idea of 4 valves per cylinder granted it's only rated at a limpy 280 hp. The LSC's were rated at a wimpy 290. I picked up my 93' MKVIII dohc for $500 running without any issues, 73k on the clock, and after sitting for 6 months... started right up without a single tick or puff of smoke.
All aluminum??? I did not know that at all so sure enough after some after shock Google searches all aluminum...pretty bad ass. Did you get motor, PCM, harness, and trans for $500?
Darren
Yep, all that and the aluminum DS. Had I known I'd be going the 03' IRS route, I would've grabbed the center section as well for that price. All the 4V's with the exception of the terminators were aluminum although the later ones, 99+ I believe, were manufactured at a different location.
The other DOHC 4.6 block is Ford's own WAP...
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/1404-fords-46l-dohc-v8-explained-cammer-time/photo-06.html
The motor I was thinking of would be a '97-98 Mark-VIII. I'd seen them on Ebay for around $700 or so, which is the only reason I even entertained the idea in the first place. I also thought of getting my hands on a 4R70W, or even a 4R75W transmission since both were used in the Marauder which uses the same engine. I also tossed around the idea of sticking the Turbo Coupe's rear end in for the bigger wheels, LS diff, and discs at the back. Assuming I keep it fairly cheap and service an Ebay engine and just sort out the suspension, fuel system, mounting, drive train, exhaust, ECU, and having the thing properly calibrated so I actually DO get 290HP or near it, what are the realistic costs here? Thanks for the responses guys, I do appreciate it.
Also a quick aside, let me know if any of you guys know much about putting the later OHC 4.6 from the Crown Vic (just before and a little after 2010) into a 2001 Grand Marquis. I thought about the 4V DOHC in there to sort of make it a Marauder, but not quite sure what else I'd have to do. Just new front springs? I know it's wider than the standard 4.6 OHC. I tried joining crownvic.com but my user profile has been pending for a year now and they have no E-mail for contacting the admins. Dad can't even access his profile anymore. Site's gone down the tubes man.
The problem with the 4.6 DOHC swap is the wiring because it's gonna be custom no matter what. At least with a 3v & coyote FRPP offers a swap harness and your starting with at least 300hp (3v).
Also, a brand new coyote crate motor starts at $6100 from Ford Racing and no matter what Stacey David says a Boss nine crate engine starts at $22,900.
For me, the biggest issue is the wiring because nearly everthing else mechanical is available to swap and or modify (obviously there are exceptions).
FYI as long as you use a 4.6 k-member the motor mounts are bolt in.
The wiring would be available as well - the SN95 Cobra (before the Terminator) had a 32V engine and was near enough to a Fox chassis to be usable. Probably be hard to find a donor car, though (But if you did you could get your cross member, suspension upgrades, etc from the same car)
It also wouldn't be particularly difficult to use the wiring from a Mark VIII. You'd need a diagram for the donor car, and you'd have to remove/add/lengthen/shorten wires, but it would not be rocket surgery...
You can also use a wiring harness from a GT. You just have to reverse the wires for the coils. There are lots of those out there at the yards or if you can get a donor GT. I have the entire wiring w/5spd ecu from the donor car where I got my dash and some other parts.
I've seriously considered selling my Mustang and getting this for the Cougar.
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/M6007M50/2011-Mustang-Ford-Racing-50L-Crate-Engine?utm_source=google-shopping&utm_medium=comparison-shopping&utm_campaign=google-shopping-v2&gclid=COLz5I6i1cQCFbIF7AodDRQAnw
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/M6017A504V/2011-Mustang-Ford-Racing-50L-Crate-Engine-Controls-Pack
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/M8600M50BALT/Ford-Racing-Crate-Engine-Boss-302-Alternator-Kit-M-8600-M50B
Slap a Whipple on it, stick it in front of one of the new 6 speed autos, run low 10's and get great mileage on the highway. Oh, and no issue on long road trips.....
As much as I'm anti-modmotor, that's pretty neat & price is reasonable...
Does say you'll need a controller for a automatic...
They actually make kits with the control pack with a 4R70.... http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/M8600M50BALT/Ford-Racing-Crate-Engine-Boss-302-Alternator-Kit-M-8600-M50B
TCI makes a 6 speed with a controller pack.
The extra 2 gears is about 2 grand when you buy the crate motor, control pack, alternator, and go the TCI route as opposed to the all in one with the 4R70.
The TCI unit is based on a 4L80E GM unit
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/transmission-packageshtml/?main=4
Decent gear spacing too with a legit 1:1 gear ratio unlike the stock Ford 6 speed.
That, in my opinion, is the one mod motor swap that's worth it. The only really comparable Windsor V8 would be a blown 408 stroker, which won't have near the reliability of a blown 5.0 Coyote.
The 300hp 3V beats the 320hp 4V everywhere except near max hp. The Coyote murders all other mod motors at all rpm! Obviously, the extra 8% displacement helps. However, even if you scale down the Coyote's power down 8%, it still edges out the other motors down low and runs away beyond 4500 rpm.
I'll never get to it, but the Coyote swap churns my butter. Mounds more expensive than a $700 Mark VIII motor though!
$7600?! WOWWWWW!
I wonder why they took a 4L80E and added 2 gears rather than use a 6L80. IRRC, the Baumann 4R70W controller isn't the best as it controls the transmission differently than the OEM, which can lead to reliability issues. I'd imagine the TCI offering is better in that regard.
It's a metric butt-ton of money (so is the Coyote), but I do like the idea of having a 6-sp auto option. 4-sp trannies are beyond archaic at this point, and a 6-sp speed gives you noticeable better driving experience (IMO) than a 5-sp, especially when you can control what gear it's in. I've driven an 8-sp Volvo, which was also nice! I don't think Chevy/Ford is making many >6sp autos in the longitudinal configuration, but I've not been keeping up with that.
Wife's Sorento is a 5 speed auto, you can also put it in a manual mode and shift it yourself. Now if I could put that engine and trans into a little 2 seat topless car...it would be so much fun I'd have to pay a tax for it..
Here's a 4.6 2v swap into Turbo Coupe one of the members over on NATO just finished... You guys might just want to look it over before tackling such a swap... Pictures are in link at beginning of thread...
http://natomessageboard.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247511#Post247511
Jeremy: GM is offering an 8-speed auto in the Vettes and higher trim levels of the trucks. I think I remember reading that they were using the ZF unit but have developed their own 8L90 that's lighter and stronger than the 6-speed and in the ZR1 shifts faster than the Porsche PDK.
Beau: Those paddle shift/auto stick things are just a gimmick. I've only ever driven one car that had a an automatic tranny with manual shift, and that was an Audi A3 with the dual clutch tranny. "Normal" automatics are just too slow and mushy to approximate a manual. My father had a 2009 Sonata with the V6 that had that same tranny as the Sorrento, and it was no fun at all in manual mode. You'd tell it to shift, it would think about it for a few seconds to decide whether it was going to give you that shift or not, and then when (if) it finally did shift it was agonizingly soft and slow. Gimme a real manual any day...
I suppose I am going to find out if a modular swap is worth it soon. lol
Got started on my 4.6 3v swap into my 87 TC last night.
I placed a spare 86-88 TC k-member under the 3v that was on an engine stand to see if the mount brackets would work with a 3v block.
Pass side looks easy to make custom engine mounts.:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/1zyhnrk.jpg)
Driver's side...not so easy. The water inlet hits the pedestal if the engine is too far back:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/im5x4y.jpg)
More details to come.
Alan, any reason you can't/won't use a k member from a '96-'04 Stang?
Or maybe one from Maximum Motorsports or the like and make yourself a ton of room for a decent exhaust? Then again, if you have a welder and time on your hands I can see where this would be tempting.
Darren
2 reasons.
The NHRA Super Stock class I want to eventually run this combo in requires a stock k-member. I could probably use a 96-04 one and no body would say anything tho.
The other reason is I want to use the 87 TC to build the engine brackets so that everything is a 100% bolt in, because I am entertaining the idea of putting that 4.6 into my 86 TC Stocker since it will soon be a NHRA legal Super Stocker anyways.
That same car could run a turbo 2.3 or a 4.6 CJ engine and not have to change k-members.
I did the 460 swap in the 87 TC and made one-off custom mounts and set the engine way back, so I am hoping I can repeat the feat here with the 4.6.
Darren:
I can't use an aftermarket k-member due to the class rules, but even if I wanted to, I wonder if it would have clearance issues.
Here is a link to the LMR blue Fairmont they put a 3v into and if you scroll down to the "2nd attempt" and 3rd attempt is shows how they had problems with an aftermarket one.
I'm sure MM has the best aftermarket k-member out there, but I can't use it anyways.
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/products/Fox-Body-Fairmont-3V-Motor-Swap-Engine-Installation
Are the 3V block mounts the same as the 2V and 4V? If so, aside from the water outlet issue, some of my Type 9 mounts with the early lower brackets may get you in the ballpark. Not sure of other clearance issues, however.
According to this (http://"http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/products/Fox-Body-Fairmont-3V-Motor-Swap-Engine-Installation") one can infer they at least will work.
Technically, that's still stock ;) Go for it!
I just sold my Mark VIII which weighed about 400lbs more than what the Tbird would weigh with the same engine and got between 17 in town 24-25 mpg on the highway. you may get a little better mpg but may not depending on your gear ratio.
One thing to remember on the newer V6 is that you sacrifice some low end torque and it will feel doggish compared to bigger displacement. 305hp is a number you'll rarely feel, 250 ft-lbs @2-3000 RPM you'll feel every day.
You can use 2v mounts on the 3v engine. It is what I did. The dipstick tube needs a slight rebending.
According to the LMR write up, and looking at their pic, it sure looks like the 2v mounts will work.The S197 mounts that came on the engine are totally different.
As a last resort if I get frustrated, those 2v mounts are the way to go with a 96-04 K-member, and as V8Demon says, it's still stock.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/rc0vhg.jpg)
edit: I was treed on the mounts. LOL
My wife has a '12 3.7 Mustang with an auto and 3.31 rear axle. It doesn't feel doggy at low rpm. It does fell quite a bit stronger over 3000rpm though but it pulls pretty viciously to 7000rpm.
The Coyote seems to have a lack of low end torque only because that's the way the electronic throttle body is calibrated. The software is intended to reduce shock to the driveline. I'll bet if the Coyote had a cable actuated throttle, nobody would be talking about it's lack of low end torque.
Another reason it's done that way is to keep morons from killing themselves going WOT from a stop in the rain. Probably ;).
My brother's got a '12 with the 6-speed and performance package, whatever rear axle ratio comes with that. It goes like a raped ape for what it is, but I still bug him that it sounds like a late 80's Cavalier Z24.
Should be a 3.31 gear. You have to order it on non performance pack cars.
I think the 3.7 V6 sounds fine, with stock lers. The '14 Mustang convertible rental we had in Hawaii a couple months ago had a louder exhaust note than my wife's car, probably because the roof was down. I'm not a huge fan of the way the 3.7 sounds with aftermarket exhaust, especially at higher RPM.
That's interesting. Are you saying that it opens slowly or doesn't open all the way to reduce driveline shock? The throttle probably doesn't need to open more than 30-50% below 2000 RPM to get to atmospheric pressure (WOT equivalent). I guess I'm thinking if the throttle doesn't open all the way it doesn't mean you're not getting full torque.
just like the 3V in the 05-10 Mustang, they are limited as to how much they'll open in stock configuration. The 3v was limited to 85% in 1st gear and 90% in second. Take that out of the equation along with shutting off the torque management parameters and the motor wakes up in a decent way.
Hmm I really should get the engine in my wife's Mustang tuned.
My brother's got a tuner for his Mustang and swears by it. And it doesn't really sound like an old Z24, I just tell him that to bug him...
On a related note, I was out looking at Mustangs today and fell in love with a Guard Metallic GT Premium with option package 401A plus nav and security and the 20" wheels. It's not a Performance Pack car, but now I think about it I would rather have the goodies in the Premium package than the performance package. I know it sounds sacrilege but I'm not going to be autocrossing or racing the thing, but I will be sitting in it every day, so the premium bits would be more appreciated. Besides, I could likely add most of the performance pack stuff back into it through aftermarket over time for less than the $3700 the option costs...
if it were me, I'd put a 460 in it. same ht and width as 4.6 dohc. a buddy did a 4.6 3valve motor in 88 cougar. lots of work.
I was doing some measuring and it appears that installing a 4.6 3v into a 87-88 TC will be even more challenging.
The 3V throttle body will be right at the opening to the hood vents on the factory TC hood. :punchballs:
I will have to remove all of the plastic air ductwork under that hood.
Looks like 1 1/2 to 2 inch k-member spacers are needed.
Gonna be close if it fits at all.
The centerline of the crank to the top of the intake on that 3v is much higher than my 460 big block is with an air cleaner on it.
Would be alot easier if I used a reg. T-Bird hood, but I like my TC hood. :D
I'm pulling the 460 out of my 87 TC and putting a 3v in.
Should take 250 lbs off the nose of the car.
Does your buddy have any pics or a build thread on the swap ?
I am trying to gather as much info as possible right now.
Some of the items here may save you some headache:
http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/blog/coyote-engine-into-a-fox-body-mustang/
Darren