Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:02:17 PM
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:02:17 PM
Yeah, I know I brought this up many months ago and ended up shooting it down myself. However, this was back when I only had one T-bird to mess around with, and it was either use an inline 6 or use my 351. (or stay with my tired ol' CFI 3.8 if I decided not to swap) Now I have two Birds, and one of them is a 5.0 SO, so I can answer the "just drop a 5.0 in it" crowd with that Bird. So unless I find another Bird/Cougar that meets a specific requirement, this would probably go into my '86 when the time is right. Besides, I'm selling the 351 'cause I need the money in the short term. I'll probably buy another one somewhere down the line and stick that in the '88.
I wasn't going to post this thread about my renewed interest in the "big block 6", originally. It was enough to talk to a few of the board members on ICQ/AIM about it, because I felt there was too much of a pro-V8 bias around here to even begin to discuss swapping in anything else. (as long as it isn't an I4, I'll consider it.. I5, I6, V6, V8, V10, V12.. hell, if they made a modern straight 8 I'd probably think it was nifty chit.. but I prefer I6s for some odd reason. I'm just sick of owning 4-bangers) However, it seems there are enough people here that are into oddball swaps to merit discussing it openly. Also, I'm tired of bugging Crystal and Shawn about it every other day.. we can just dump our collected info into one thread about it.. and anyone else who might want to try the same can benefit.
Originally I thought this would end because the 300 would be WAY too big for a Fox-body engine bay. Well, yes, space is going to be an issue.. but it doesn't seem to be a deal-killer here. Between a cowl hood and the possibility of a custom K-member, it MIGHT fit. We're talking about an engine with a deck height of 10.00", straight up.. not 45 degrees off vertical. Using a tape measure and an approximation of crank centerline, I was able to determine that there's somewhere between 16-18" from the crank centerline of both my 5.0 and my 3.8 to the top of the fan shroud. That should be a start on figuring if this beast can fit, if crank centerline height is going to be roughly equal between the different engines.
Other details I've found so far about the 300:
- Same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 289/302/351W. - Poking around Ford truck forums, it seems that the truck guys who swap from a 300 to the 302/351 use different motor mounts, but they bolt to the same location.
There should be more to this list, but I've got a lot of other junk on my mind today and it's hard to remember all the 300 stuff. I'll fill more of this in later or tomorrow.. and Crystal and Shawn can feel free to chime in, as well as anyone else who might be interested in seeing this happen. If you have any relevant info on the EFI 300, please feel free to deposit it here.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: nirvanagod on March 07, 2005, 07:19:05 PM
I think this would be rather cool to see. I personally like the supra inline 6's for their stoutness, pure upgradability, and just plain ability to handle an insane amount of power (nearly 2000, at last count). I can't say for a fact that the ford equivelent would handle the same, but i'd never put it outta the realm of possibility. It's definately an cool idea and i'd like to see a supra killer if possible! On a technical note, last I heard an inline 6 and i believe the v12 are natures perfect engine designs being as they don't need balancer's (perfect internal balance via the crank I think? :dunno: ). None-the-less, bring it on!
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:30:52 PM
Yes, inline 6s and V12s of any angle (60, 90, 180, etc.) are "naturally balanced". No balancing required at the flywheel/flexplate/etc.
I want to build the "ultimate road trip T-bird". One part of this is having something with more than enough low-end to effortlessly pull the car along at 75-80 mph while being geared for running well below 2000 RPM at that speed. But, I'd like to keep acceleration intact. That's why I'd like to pick up a gear splitter for the second overdrive option (along with an AOD or other overdrive slushbox) and use something like a 3.55 or 3.73 rear gear. Anyway, I've long known I6s to have a rep for being pretty stout in the torque department. I'm counting on that smoothness.. not just from using an inline 6, but from running it at a pretty low rev for highway speeds. Should be very smooth and very quiet, which I will enhance by extensive use of Dynamat. I'll compensate for the added weight of the Dynamat with other weight reductions where possible. Probably tubular A-arms and stuff like that. Hopefully any custom K-member I might get will also be a weight savings. (of course, structural reinforcements will offset some weight savings as well)
Sorry if this makes even less sense than my usual posts. I'm really distracted tonight.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: slamedcat on March 07, 2005, 07:33:32 PM
http://www.fordsix.com/crossflow.htm
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:38:00 PM
Oh yeah, I should probably address the "twin turbos" part.
I'm normally not a big fan of turbos. I'd rather use a supercharger. However, it just seems like it would make sense for this. It's a long, relatively thin engine with all six exhaust ports on one side. Should be plenty of room to custom fab in a couple of TC turbos. I'm told a pair of smaller turbos vs. one large turbo will spool up quickly but run out of steam at high revs. Well, I'm not looking to build for high revs. I really wouldn't care if this engine never saw anything above 5000 RPM. Hell, I'd even be willing to stick a 5k rev limiter plugin into a MSD box on this. But anyway, as of now I'm thinking one TC-sized turbo on the front 3 exhaust ports, one on the back 3.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: slamedcat
http://www.fordsix.com/crossflow.htm
I know about fordsix and clifford performance. The problem with what you just provided is that the 200/250 is a "small block 6".. and the Aussie crossflow head is a modification to the 200/250, because the stock US head for that engine SUCKS ASS. (1v carbed, head and intake manifold are one piece) The 3.3 (200) I6 that was in the early Fox Mustang/Capri is not the same family as the "big block 6" truck engine, the 240/300. Also, only the 250 shares the small block bolt pattern. If I recall, the 250 is an older engine, and I'd be more likely to find a 200 than a 250. But at least in the case of the 200/250, I know there's a Fox-body K-member built just for it.
I even considered the possibility that some I6 fans have mentioned, of getting an extra pair of V6/V8 heads with the same bore spacing and hacking them together. (for the 200/250) In the end, though, I figure the 300 is what I want. Can already get EFI on it, it's the biggest I6 you can get from Ford, and it uses the 289/302/351W bellhousing.
EDIT: It was said somewhere that the crossflow mod for the small I6 is akin to putting Cleveland heads on a Windsor block.. just to give you a reference point.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 07, 2005, 07:50:26 PM
A buddy of mine had a '79 Mustang with a 300 in it, and it fit with no problems. The car was originally a 250, but he stuffed that 300 in using the stock I6 crossmember. I don't know what he did about the oil pan or mounts though. The car looked absolutely foolish with its Capri hood (stuck out about 2" past the grille) and baby blue paint, but you could not kill that engine.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 07:54:51 PM
With seven main caps on it, I should hope it would be nearly indestructible. :p
Yeah, oil pan/mounts/crossmember is my main concern. Are you sure he used the I6 crossmember? I've been wondering quite a bit about that one.
I've been meaning to post to FTE to ask them more details about the 300, but I keep putting it off.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: JeremyB on March 07, 2005, 09:24:33 PM
Quote from: Bird351
I'm told a pair of smaller turbos vs. one large turbo will spool up quickly but run out of steam at high revs. Well, I'm not looking to build for high revs. I really wouldn't care if this engine never saw anything above 5000 RPM.
Don't listen to those people. As long as you design the system right, two turbos will work just fine. So will one. Seeing as you have and inline and want a highway cruiser, I would think one turbo would be the choice. The cost/fabrication/maintenance savings of a single more than offsets the small performance increase of the twin.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 09:29:44 PM
Actually, I thought it would be somewhat "interesting" to try to get six exhaust pipes to one turbo. Figured one small one for every 3 pipes would be less of a hassle in that department.. but then there's the increase in intake plumbing..
One moderate-sized turbo.. two small ones.. whatever works.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: JeremyB on March 07, 2005, 09:58:52 PM
Two good books for turbocharger knowledge are Maximum Boost (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0837601606/ref=pd_ir_imp/104-3771368-6598352) by Corky Bell, and Turbochargers (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895861356/ref=pd_ir_imp/104-3771368-6598352) by Hugh MacInnes. I've found turbomustangs.com and the turbomustangs forums to have good info too. I don't think you'll find much info about turbo I-300s, but most of the turbo info isn't platform specific. Turbocalc (http://www.turbofast.com.au/freesoftware.html) is a good program to visualize how your engine fits with different turbochargers. I found that several of the maps can be off by 5-10% though. I built my own spreadsheet to correct those errors, but it has never been vetted by an independent source.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: tbirdscott on March 07, 2005, 09:59:31 PM
FTE is a great place and they know their I6 stuff. The 300 is an indestructable torque monster, sounds like it would be an awesome project.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Ether947 on March 07, 2005, 09:59:50 PM
i thought about an 300 swap some time ago (along with numerous others) instead of following the 5.0 crowd into oblivion. i remember reading somewhere that they respond very well to bolt-ons and have torque for days. sounds like the ideal engine to me. someone makes a swap kit into fox mustangs, i'm sure it would work for the TBird. i just don't remember who. good luck on the swap! ^_^
JeremyB: i didn't know you were in Huntsville too. i must be blind. XD
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: nirvanagod on March 07, 2005, 10:16:43 PM
Quote from: Bird351
Actually, I thought it would be somewhat "interesting" to try to get six exhaust pipes to one turbo. Figured one small one for every 3 pipes would be less of a hassle in that department.. but then there's the increase in intake plumbing..
One moderate-sized turbo.. two small ones.. whatever works.
Don't wanna run it into the ground, but someone gotta start it. Also it's gonna be one of the better examples for a project like this. Anywho, I got off the phone with a friend, and had him verify that the supra was a twin turbo car from the factory. This setup did exactly what you are thinking, 3 pipes per turbo. Now a few of those cars owners "upgraded" to a single, larger, more efficient turbo, but as was mentioned, the manifold is changed out. So take from that what you will. If you wanna use the info as reference, I can pass your questions onto my supra friend, and pass his answers back to you. Just let me know!
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 10:24:05 PM
Thanks, but I can probably get much of the same info from the local friend of mine who helps me the most with car chit. He's also a big Supra fan. Anyway, I'll take your word that one can function just as well as two when set up properly. (don't say it, Crystal) :p
Like I said, whatever works. As long as it does what I want it to at lower RPMs.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 07, 2005, 10:47:14 PM
MM&FF magazine did a dyno test a while back and found that at identical boost levels a single turbo will make more power than two smaller ones. I guess the larger turbo is more efficient or something.
Just to add another idea in there, why not something along the lines of an M90 hung on the side of the block? The 300 is a torque monster and a low revver, so it'd probably respond better to a roots type supercharger than it would to a turbo. M90's are easy to find, being bolted to Super Coupes, 89-90 XR7's, and any number of GM fullsize and intermediate cars (Bonneville, 88, 98, Riviera, LeSabre, Grand Prix, etc). Since the M90 was designed for everyday use it is a very durable unit, too. With a 300 under the hood there would be lots of room for the supercharger and plumbing
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 07, 2005, 11:05:50 PM
Honestly, I would rather use a supercharger over a turbo. I just didn't know how feasible it would be on a 300. Also, I have another kooky project idea involving a supercharger and a V8 Bird that might get done someday, which should fill my supercharger "itch". But yeah, I'd love to use a supercharger (especially roots-type) w/ the 300. The M90 was that Eaton model, right?
My main concern is still squashing that bad boy under the hood. I wonder how difficult it would be to get a custom version of the I6 'member. I also worry about the length of the beast and how it will affect fan use. Sometimes I wonder if I might have to get an oversized electric fan to make up for the efficiency loss of using it as a pusher.
My next concern is the electronics/EFI. I'm guessing there aren't a whole lot of performance-oriented EECs for 300s out there. Probably going to need to dig up those custom EFI setup links again, when the time comes. I'm also guessing that I'll need some beefy injectors on an engine that has the same bore and stroke as a 400. I'm having difficulties searching for info on the 300, though.. beyond the basics. (bore and stroke, bore spacing, etc.) Putting "Ford 300" and "Ford 4.9L" and a whole bunch of other combinations into Google gives me a headache after the first few hours.. and I probably looked through 15+ pages of FTE's swap section looking for 300 info. Even Clifford and FordSix weren't terribly useful at times. Seems like the biggest thing people wanna know about their 300s is how to swap a small block V8 into their spot.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 07, 2005, 11:39:33 PM
I should think that you could adapt a 3.8 V6 EEC-IV mass air computer (found in 91-95 T-Bird/Cougar, 954-95 Mustang, 89-95 SC, 89-90 XR7) to work with a 300 easily enough. The engine computer does not know whether the cylinders are in a line or in a row. It would require some creative wiring (you'd have to make a harness that would fit the inline engine design and maintain the correct firing order) but I would think it wouldn't be too hard. The SC computer is mass air, too, so it would compensate for the added displacement. If you got an SC computer you could even use it to control the "wastegate" of the M90 (yes, it's an Eaton). You could then use a Mustang mass airflow sensor calibrated to whatever injectors you used. The M90 has a bunch of aftermarket parts available (pulleys, lids, etc). I would bet that a 300 with an M90 and some tuning could easily exceed 300 reliable horsepower. It could probably do that with the stock head and intake with a bit of porting.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: shame302 on March 08, 2005, 01:18:27 AM
i can see it all coming together allready....
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 08, 2005, 10:50:37 AM
Hmmm.. interesting.
http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp90_4th.htm ("4th generation" version for the Aussies) http://www.automotive.eaton.com/product/engine_controls/superchargers/M90.asp
Looking up a later-model van, I see they rate the 300 at 150 hp. You really think I should be shooting for 300 hp with the M90 and some head work?
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 08, 2005, 11:27:19 AM
Here's a built (but carbed & N/A) 300 over at FTE:
300 H.P. @ 4600 rpm & 400 Torque @ 3200 rpm w/ a 10 to 1 C.R. It idels @ 675 & is smooth as glass, a quarter was placed on top of the Valve Cover & it Did Not move Nor rattle.
Ross Pistons 4.060 Hastings Power Flex Rings .060 Federal Mogul Mains .020 Under Clevite Performance Bearings Std. Federal Mogul Cam Bearings Std. Melling Torque Cam Melling H.V. Oli Pump Eagle H-beam Rods 6.300 2.100 Rod Journal Crane Gold Race Roller rockers ARP Main Stud Kit, Rocker Studs, Fisher International Ballancer Bore 4.060 Power Hone 4.060 Full P&P Intake & Exhaust Performance valve job Performance Balance job on Steele Crank w/ in 7 grams Grind Rod Journals to 2.100 Plumb Intake for Heat via Water Pump Deck Block to Square Align hone to Factory specs Deck block for Zero Deck Offenhauser C Intake Holley 1850 600 CFM S.S. Borla 2 into 2 Header
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 08, 2005, 11:47:28 AM
More I6 info:
http://www.geocities.com/edwins63/I6ID.html
Quote
The 240/300 OHV six. All: valve arrangement: (front to rear) E-I-E-I-E-I-E-I-E-I-E-I, hydraulic lifters, Gear driven cam, distributor in center left of block, used a 5/16" shaft oil pump shaft, cast aluminum timing cover, 7 main bearings These engines use the ford small block bell housing like the 250 I6 (& the 289/302/351 V8). Found in DIVCO trucks to '73 New Holland models 975, 980, 985, 990 combines, and 1047 bale wagons 240 (3.9L): 1965-1972 (1974 trucks) bore 4" X stroke 3.18" Full size cars, light trucks & possibly industrial applications Heads are the same as the 300, except that the combustion chambers are smaller. A 240 can be converted into a hi-compression 300 with a 300 crank & rods. Most had a 2-grove balancer. Entire engine was painted Ford Blue Door codes; cars: V, trucks-'65: J, '66-'74: A 300 (4.9L): 1965-1996 bore 4" X stroke 3.98" Truck only motor, though found in industrial (tractor?) applications as well, EFI '87-'96 (late '86 as well) Some big truck/HD models have a forged crank. '65-83 blocks have the dipstick hole in front of the distributor for 2wd applications, 4x4s use a dipstick that goes through the pan (rear sump pan). '84 & later blocks have an additional dipstick hole behind the oil filter mount for 4x4 applications. '85 & later heads have pedestal mounted rocker arms. EFI engines had a serpentine belt, dual cast iron exhaust headers, the mechanical fuel pump mount hole is not there, though the mounting holes are there & cam lobe is still on the cam. Supposedly the engine was (is?) produced till about 2000-1 for industrial applications. Early industrial applications had an adjustable valve train (?). Most had a 3-grove balancer, though some industrial versions have a 2-grove. Engines were painted Ford Blue till about '83, from then on engines were painted Ford Grey Door codes; '65-'79: B, '80-82: E, '83-'96: Y
EDIT: Tacking a picture onto this post.. (it's a hacked-up version of a much larger chart)
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: crystal on March 08, 2005, 12:38:30 PM
That's it, I'm getting info from my parts guy on the turbo 300 ci truck he built back in the early 80's (talk about a parts hauler :))
I've been in on this whole topic for a long time off the boards, I have 2 300 engines sitting in my garage begging to be put in something ;)
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 08, 2005, 12:49:45 PM
Here's a thread at FTE about turbo 300s, that also discusses the M90 later on:
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 10, 2005, 01:18:17 PM
http://www.bigblocksix.com/Eddie/injectorswap/
12# injectors stock? Ugh. That'll have to go.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)
Post by: Tbird232ci on March 10, 2005, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: crystal
That's it, I'm getting info from my parts guy on the turbo 300 ci truck he built back in the early 80's (talk about a parts hauler :))
I've been in on this whole topic for a long time off the boards, I have 2 300 engines sitting in my garage begging to be put in something ;)
back in the 80's, im betting he used a similar setup to the carbed 2.3L's with turbos, that akward draw through setup
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 10, 2005, 04:03:18 PM
Put in a new title to reflect possible change of plans. (supercharger instead of turbo)
As for the Eaton M90.. I am starting to think twice about that one in particular. If it could be done similarly, I think I would rather go with a Kenne Bell supercharger.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Haystack on March 13, 2005, 07:38:31 AM
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: I brought this subject up about 1 year ago and almost got mauled, and nothing but it wont work no matter what aditudes(me and my spelling). My dad's 1978 econoline van has a 300-6. It started up first time after sitting for more then 7 years. And before those 7 years it was only driven a couple of times in about 5 more years. We drove the van almost 150 miles with no problems, and with only 3rd 4th and reverse.(we were moving). I would think that a newer fuel injected engine would do quite nicely. If there is anything at all that you need(mesurements or anything that you can think of) I will do my personal best to help you. If my car blows up, I am thinking of dropping in the old 78's 300-6 with the old 4 speed tranny. Also check out 90's trucks for parts. I think that they will have a t-5 and everything already set up. You might have to make a custom console, because the stick will be alittle further back,because the t-5's shifters go straight to the gearbox. I say full steam ahead. p.s. the 5.0's arent even 5.0's. So if anyone bugs you about the 6, just tell them that you are gonna drop in a 5.0 :D
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: MasterBlaster on March 13, 2005, 08:45:42 AM
Quote
I brought this subject up about 1 year ago and almost got mauled
Ah, yes... An exercise in creative thinking (uncommon swap)
Ahem... "it's a waste of time/can't be done/are you insane" :rollin:
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 13, 2005, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: MasterBlaster
Ah, yes... An exercise in creative thinking (uncommon swap)
Ahem... "it's a waste of time/can't be done/are you insane" :rollin:
I'm thinking the same.....
But seriously have you researched a computer system to run this beast??? If not possibly a Super Coupe EEC could be adapted since it works with a boosted engine and large injectors(30-36lb depends on year). It would require a bunch of re-wiring but it could be done.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 13, 2005, 09:55:13 AM
Quote from: MasterBlaster
Ah, yes... An exercise in creative thinking (uncommon swap)
Ahem... "it's a waste of time/can't be done/are you insane" :rollin:
Actually, you're quoting my old thread on it.. not Haystack's.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 13, 2005, 10:03:10 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50
I'm thinking the same.....
But seriously have you researched a computer system to run this beast??? If not possibly a Super Coupe EEC could be adapted since it works with a boosted engine and large injectors(30-36lb depends on year). It would require a bunch of re-wiring but it could be done.
The SC EEC was already mentioned, yes.. and that's about the size injector we've discussed elsewhere. (30-36) If not, some custom EFI setup might've been in the plans. I don't plan on doing this until my financial situation is vastly improved, which I'm working on changing. Also not going to happen until the V8 Bird is up and running again.
So which part were you going for? The "are you insane" or "waste of time" or "can't be done"? :p
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: MasterBlaster on March 13, 2005, 10:34:25 AM
Quote
Actually, you're quoting my old thread on it.. not Haystack's.
Well, I wasn't sure who kept the same screen names over here, but I remembered the thread. :dunno:
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 13, 2005, 10:50:11 AM
Who else would *want* this name after I've used it for so long? :p
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on March 14, 2005, 03:12:37 PM
Interesting.. there's talk over on FTE about using the rockers from a 3.8.. although they're wanting the 1.73/1.8 rockers.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 06, 2005, 06:55:06 PM
OK, thread was almost out of sight but not out of mind.
So CoolCats lists a 1.6 rocker for the 3.8.. but two different people claim they're 1.73s. I don't know what to say on that one. If they're 1.73s, and they work on the 300 with only minor machining, I guess I may have to swipe 'em off my 3.8 when time comes for the swap.
Tom never answered which part he was agreeing with, so I'm going to guess the "are you insane?" part. :D
Been thinking a lot about K-members lately. I've seen quite a few well-worn Fairmonts running around town lately, that could possibly be sources of an I6 K-member. Does anyone think there's a chance one of these K-member companies (or even a decent local welding shop, I know one place where my dad used to be a friend of the owner) could/would do a custom (tubular, etc.) I6 K-member? I remember someone (Shame302, I think) mentioning in another thread that one place asked him how much he wanted an engine dropped with a custom K-member.. but of course that was a V8 K-member.. 'cause I'm the only insane one that wants an I6 in a T-bird. :p
Anyway.. some of the other conditions of doing this are finally starting to budge in better directions. The absolute worst of my financial pit of desperation is coming to an end.. and the dark blue T-bird is much closer to operational. Yeah, the I6 project is still a LONG way off.. but now I don't feel quite so stupid thinking about it.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Haystack on April 06, 2005, 07:10:52 PM
maybe you could get a 5.0 supercharger and convert it using a custom intake for the i-6. I really would be willing to help you in anyway that you need it. If you get yours to work, I might go the same route.
*edit*thinking about it, if a 300 inline fits, and a v-8 fits, dosent that mean that a v-12 will fit?
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 06, 2005, 07:18:37 PM
Well, when the time comes, I will probably contact the Kenne Bell people and ask them if they could adapt their Jeep 4.0 I6 kit to a Ford 4.9L.. but I guess anything's possible.
That would be nifty if someone else found a point to copying what I'm trying to do.. even if it's not for the same reasons I'm doing it. Of course, from the many angles, it probably does make more sense for most people to "just put a 5.0 in it".. but now I have a 5.0 T-bird, and I'd like to indulge my oddness a little bit on the other Bird.
EDIT for an edit: I suppose it would depend on what V12. I don't know much about any existing V12, so I couldn't help ya there. I think the I6 is going to be tight, but it should work. I'm more worried about that 10 inch deck height and what not. I'd rather keep a stock hood if at all possible.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: V8Demon on April 06, 2005, 07:56:01 PM
Quote
So CoolCats lists a 1.6 rocker for the 3.8.. but two different people claim they're 1.73s
Make that 3 people. They are in fact 1.73:1 STOCK! At least from 88 on back they were. The latest ones might be different, but I doubt it.....
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 06, 2005, 08:02:56 PM
Well, this is the part in question: http://www.coolcats.net/tech/general/v6.html
Quote
ROCKER ARMS You can use roller rocker arms from the 5.0 V8--they'll work, and sometimes can be bought in sets of 12 instead of 16. Since the stock ratio is 1.6 you should use this ratio in roller rockers as well.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 06, 2005, 08:08:39 PM
Like I said, I knew a guy with a 300 in an '82 Capri/Mustang ization, and I know he was too stupid to build a custom crossmember. It fit in the car with the stock hood... well, it was a stock Capri hood on a Mustang (which, as it turned out, made it about 3" too long owing to the Capri's upright grille versus the '82 Mustang's laid back grille).
Believe me, if I had a garage and the time i would steal this idea right out from under you :D You got me thinking bigtime, and I do think it could be done fairly easily and inexpensively with little more than a wrecked SC for parts. You could get the M90, injectors, electronics, etc from the TC. You'd have to make up a bracket to hold the M90, and you'd have to make up some plumbing. Of course, you'd also have to come up with a way to stick that 300 in there as well :D A mild performance rebuild (including forged pistons) and some creative porting, a larger throttle body and custom cam and you could probably use the stock induction system. Just think, you could even use a 5-speed tranny, since 2WD 300, 5-speed trucks are a dime a dozen.
You'd end up with a turbine smooth, near bulletproof, 300+ horsepower, ungodly torquey monster for not much more $$ than a similarly built 5.0, but it would be way more unique. I want to do this in a big way!
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: V8Demon on April 06, 2005, 08:27:15 PM
Quote
ROCKER ARMS You can use roller rocker arms from the 5.0 V8--they'll work, and sometimes can be bought in sets of 12 instead of 16. Since the stock ratio is 1.6 you should use this ratio in roller rockers as well.
http://www.harlandsharp.com/bolton3.htm
Quote
3.8 Liter V6 Ford PART # RATIO APPLICATION S4018 1.8:1 3/8 Bolt 3.8 V6 Ford S4018A 1.8:1 3/8 Bolt 3.8 V6 Ford adjustable
S4173 1.73:1 3/8 Bolt 3.8 V6 Ford S4173A 1.73:1 3/8 Bolt 3.8 V6 Ford adjustable Includes pedestals & bolts Bolt-On application Utilize a roller valvetrain without the hassle of machine work Part # S4018 increases ratio for more performance * 1.73:1 stock ratio
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Haystack on April 06, 2005, 08:38:03 PM
i heard that most v-6's have 1.6 rocker arms, I dont really know though. If you do get a super for a jeep, you might want to go with lower ratio because of the boost.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 06, 2005, 10:34:05 PM
By all means, "steal it out from under me".. heh. I'm not looking to be unique, just unusual. I mean, it's not like we're fighting over the last 300 on the planet or anything. :p
BTW, I'm not doubting the rocker thing. 1.6, 1.73, I don't know either way so I can't say anything about it. All I'm thinking is that, if it really IS 1.73, someone might wanna mention it to Eric as a possible correction. I'm mainly concerned with the site being accurate.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 06, 2005, 11:25:59 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
Like I said, I knew a guy with a 300 in an '82 Capri/Mustang ization, and I know he was too stupid to build a custom crossmember. It fit in the car with the stock hood... well, it was a stock Capri hood on a Mustang (which, as it turned out, made it about 3" too long owing to the Capri's upright grille versus the '82 Mustang's laid back grille).
I forgot to address this earlier. It's not that I think I absolutely would NEED a custom K-member. It's that I'd like to A) be able to get a tubular K-member if possible, and B) have the option open of getting a little extra hood clearance in the process.
Awww, I had five stars for the first time on a thread, and it's already sinking. :p
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 07, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
I may have some old info on the 3.8 rocker arms...I do believe they're 1.7 from the factory. Will double check.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 09:27:22 PM
Any news on that, Eric?
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: ButtSlappingPirate on April 29, 2005, 01:30:14 AM
So far as the head design is concerned....you might place a call to Esslinger Engineering, as they have made aluminum drag race heads for the 300-6 in the past...there was one listed in the Ford Motorsport catalog just a year ago...they might have a street version available..
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on April 29, 2005, 09:10:18 AM
There's a discussion about the Motorsport head over in FTE's forums right now, I think.. in the inline 6 section, under a thread with a name like "dreaming of a new head for the 300". Did not know about the Esslinger head, though. (if it got mentioned over at FTE, I haven't seen it yet.. but I usually come here before going anywhere else, in the morning)
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 22, 2005, 01:17:37 PM
This thread is coming back from the dead!
Now that there's the prospect of gainful employment on the horizon for one or both of us, I can start thinking a little more definitely about doing something with this car.
I think, for the short term, that the '86 might get my carbed 351 once the V6 s out. I just can't justify spending money to resurrect the V6 (bad rear main seal, now also blowing a little more white smoke, etc.) when I have that sitting around.
But WTF, I'm sure someone's thinking.. why pull the V6 and put in the 351, just to turn around a year or two later and pull the 351 in favor of a py ol' inline 6? Because, frankly, I have my mind set on putting a 300 into that car. (the one that's likely to become a sedan delivery if I can ever get that project off the ground) It'll be truly unique, as far as I'm concerned. Besides, I have another place I'd like to see that 351 go to someday.
So why bother resurrecting this when it's all just speculation? Because I view these threads as sort of an online planner/journal for these projects.
I've also considered another interesting wrinkle to this.. using a T56 with the stock Viper gearset. The 300 shares bellhousings with the 5.0/5.8/etc. (just needs a neutral balance flywheel, if I recall) so I'm thinking any of the conversion hardware out there SHOULD make this possible. (Summit advertises a T56 for 5.0/5.8 Mustang use, but it has the aftermarket 5th and 6th gears.. numerically higher OD ratios) The 6th gear/2nd OD is .5:1.. so snagging a 3.73 TC rear end and using the tires I'd be likely to use (around 26.6" dia.) the calculators spit out a number of 1767 RPM at 75 mph in 6th gear. (2615 RPM @ 75 mph in the .74:1 5th gear/1st OD, just for reference.. I love this gearing shiznit, can't ya tell?)
While I'm on the subject of the long-term project: If any of you are willing to do a really good photochop, I could really use some help making this sedan delivery idea take shape. You'll get credit for the design, as I make no false claims of having any good editing abilities beyond the simple crops and resizes you see me do from time to time. Please let me know if you're interested. I can provide quite a few pictures, and take more if needed.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Haystack on June 22, 2005, 02:27:21 PM
just let us know. I brought it up (minus the turbo/super) before you did so I am interested. I would like to see progress? If not I really dont mind the threads that you post anyways. Really informative and spiffy.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 22, 2005, 03:59:06 PM
Heh.. we're a minority here, I think. Besides you, me, Carmen, and a few other people.. it seems like it would be more interesting to more people if the swap were about a less common V8 like a Cleveland or FE or something, instead of a big I6. We don't even hear much from people who are interested in unusual swaps just for the sake of being uncommon. Guess the ol' 300 is just too boring. :D Not that this matters much, really. Just an observation.. it doesn't bother me in the least.
Hey, maybe we can turn this into some kinda cult (on the board) thing. "Cult of the Boring Six-Bangers". :p
BTW, people like Shawn and Crystal.. you're welcome to try to talk me out of the positive-displacement supercharger thing and back into a turbo. :p
I don't have any real progress to post right now.. and probably won't until I can snag an EFI 300 to work with. Then I can clean it up, take extensive measurements, figure out what needs to be custom-fabbed to make it work, (I'm guessing a custom dry-sump oil setup is in my future, for starters) etc. But I hope to have every researchable detail worked out before even one little piece is removed to begin the actual swap.. so if I keep flogging this old thread now and again with little bits to keep it going, that's why.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 30thtbird on June 22, 2005, 05:55:56 PM
cant remember what magazine it was in,but 10 or so years ago,i seen a story about a rail running an inline 6.not sure if it was a 250 or 300 either,but it had a pair of aluminum cleavland heads cut and welded to fit.trippin. sounds like a great ideal.show everyone it can be done.what type of fuelinjection do those newer 300's run.mass air?speed density?
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 22, 2005, 07:59:40 PM
Yeah, I've seen occasional info about people racing I6s.. don't think I have any of it bookmarked/saved, though.
Cutting up heads is also something I've heard mentioned before, but if I recall it was about cutting up 3.8 V6 heads like that. It's something I might explore someday if the 300 head turns out to be too much of a dog.. but really, I'm not looking to race this car at all, so I sorta see wildly custom head work as something beyond the point of doing. I'm thinking more along the lines of port/polish/3-angle/gasket-match/etc. on a stock head.. along with whatever modifications the supercharger/turbo (whichever I settle on) setup requires.
As for the EFI.. all I distinctly remember from it is being bank-fire and having horrible (like 12#) injectors. Not sure about speed density vs. mass air.. but if I end up having to run some custom/hacked up setup, I would think I could choose which one I wanted. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread about adapting an EEC from a SuperCoupe.. I'd have to look into that and then go from there.. or perhaps build an entirely custom EFI setup or something. That's all in the details I need to nail down.
While I'm mentioning details, I should point out that I would like to try to have all the creature comforts in this. Power steering, A/C, etc.. but I have to wonder if things like cruise control could be made to work on such a different setup. I'm not even clear if I could make it work if and when I have to put the carbed 351 in there to keep the car usable.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: JeremyB on June 22, 2005, 08:50:48 PM
Quote from: Bird351
I've also considered another interesting wrinkle to this.. using a T56 with the stock Viper gearset. The 300 shares bellhousings with the 5.0/5.8/etc. (just needs a neutral balance flywheel, if I recall) so I'm thinking any of the conversion hardware out there SHOULD make this possible.
A viper-spec T56 goes for $2999 on DDperformance.com (http://www.ddperformance.com). Link (http://www.ddperformance.com/t56__6_speed%20transmissions.htm). The non-viper T56 is $2099. I don't know what is required to swap gearsets. You'd also need a new crossmember ($=?) and a shortened driveshaft. It is a very expensive proposition.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 22, 2005, 09:02:36 PM
The gear splitter idea would've cost around 2 grand just for the splitter, plus any custom work that may have needed doing.. so either way, it's going to cost.
Basically now I just want the gearset that gives me the .5:1 OD.. but, if it works better to get the wide ratio gearset and a numerically-lower rear gear to get the same general result, that's possible too. I can just whip out the spreadsheet and start plugging in numbers again. (and if I ever find a display of the proper engine RPM formula instead of just using FordMuscle's calculator, we may design that into it too)
I am aware that I've put forth a lot of really expensive things in this thread. I could easily end up dumping ten grand or more into the project before it's done. But it'll leave me with one car done very much the way I'd want to do one unique car.. and one or two mostly mundane cars since I won't want to duplicate this level of work 2 more times.
Again it comes back to the old argument of whether it's worth it to dump that kind of money into an older car or just buy a new one. Well frankly, I've been looking at car prices lately, in case I have to pick up an econo-shiznitbox for delivery/courier work sometime in the next year or so.. just about all those cars (new ones anyway) are in the $15,000+ range when reasonably equipped.. and they still wouldn't be unique or built the way I'd want them. Who knows.. both might happen. (econo-shiznitbox and custom T-bird) Can't say where I/we will be in six months, once we've both found work and all that.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: jcassity on June 22, 2005, 11:59:09 PM
Quote from: Bird351
Again it comes back to the old argument of whether it's worth it to dump that kind of money into an older car or just buy a new one.
Im always bewildered by that comment as it makes me wonder what on earth would cause me to purchase the parts and labor involved on my cougar that would end up being equal to the cost of a new car. i say its always smarter to dump as much cash as you could into a car with a great chassis. Frankly, the chassis is what you hope will hold the parts you are buying. I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
im always lost when i hear those words...... "its not worth dumping all that money into and old car"
acutally i think people are really saying "its time to get something newer"
Your dumping money into a project wont ever come near what a new car would cost you. going out into the land of a creative mod like this might be uncharted ground but the cost still should not warrent the plans to be filed under "t".
just my opinion but the thread is interesting and im with you all the way on the potential of the I6,, they have always been the long endurance machine with very little expense.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 23, 2005, 11:54:43 AM
Early, rough figures estimated for some of the things I want to do to this one project:
- Kenne Bell supercharger, adapted to work with a Ford 300: At LEAST $2000.. $3000+ is probably a much more reasonable starting figure. Goes up from there. - T56 transmission, proper crossmember, custom driveshaft: Probably around $3700, based on that site Jeremy linked to. Could easily be more. - Ford 4.9L EFI plus a rebuild, some head work, and whatever it takes to beef it up for forced induction: I'm guessing $1000 is the extreme minimum on this.. also expecting to pay more. - A once-in-a-lifetime set of AutoMeter gauges, (they're too expensive to do otherwise) at least $1022 for the stuff I want
For the stuff I have no idea on what it will cost: - TC or Mark VII rear axle, w/ 3.73s or 4.10s and a PowerTrax locker - Probably a 5-lug conversion and brake upgrade all around - Tires and wheels to match - The usual desired structural/suspension work.. SFCs, CC plates, strut tower brace if I can fit one over the 300, torque box reinforcement, loads of front end work, CHE adjustables out back, etc. - The custom structural and interior work of making a sedan delivery out of an '86 T-bird - A pair of replacement doors since mine are rusted out at the bottoms - Various cleanup body work - A fresh paint job after all the body work (nothing spectacular.. thinking either trying to get the original regatta blue, or using '05 Mustang Windveil Blue.. or a long shot would be the Sonic Blue from the SVT Ranger concept truck)
I'm sure I left some stuff off that list.. but if you add that up in your head, (and is it intimidating now that I wrote it all down.. but hey, I expected that one big car project could last me several years) and compare it to your average compact car's price, I think I probably beat that. I think the Toyota Echo starts around $10-11 grand.. and the Focuses I looked at on our local dealer's online inventory list were all around $15-16k (after $2500 back in incentives) reasonably loaded. So yeah, it is possible (and in my case, likely) to spend new car money on a used car. But, I'll be getting something done exactly how I want it. (depending on what work I go into, I may also be trying to pick up one of the aforementioned economy cars as well)
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: MexCougar on June 23, 2005, 06:49:41 PM
Whoa, you want a car for the Autobahn test.... cruising at 240 km/h and surprising some Porsches, Mercedes and Bmw´s on the road.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 88FoxBird on June 23, 2005, 07:05:23 PM
Quote
- The custom structural and interior work of making a sedan delivery out of an '86 T-bird
:bowdown:
I would love to see that done. Was always a fan of sedan deliverys.
Title: Re: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on June 23, 2005, 09:45:10 PM
Yeah, I was inspired by a picture I found of a Pinto SD. Got me thinking about using an 83-86 Cougar back window as the tailgate window, and it went from there. Although now, I don't know if I would do that or just get a custom sheet of glass or lexan or something. I'd like to have a rear defogger with it, though.
Seems somewhat oddly appropriate to combine an engine known for reliably haulin' stuff around in pickups with a T-bird that can haul a little more than normal. The other possible candidate to do this would be my '88 LSC due to the lower trunk opening, (no taillights in the way) but that would remove what makes it a Continental.
I should make a separate thread for the S.D. part of it.
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 84t-bird on January 08, 2006, 02:02:42 AM
im going to bring this back up due to im a new guy and have a spare 300 that needs to go somewhere. does anybody need more info measurements for the 300? the one i have sitting is a fuel injected version i also have a carbed one being run in my truck. i am mostly serious about this. i like how the inline 6 runs and i have never been a real fan of a v8. in fact typing v8 seems almost like typing a profane word. it just doesnt belong in polite company. any ways, if you guyes are still interrested in this swap i would love to go over info on it and maby some day i could get it to happen. thanks jeremy
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on January 08, 2006, 02:32:43 AM
There's no need to antagonize the V8 fans here, really. You'll find that it's a majority of the users here.
I don't think anyone's ready to move ahead with such a swap.. so measurements aren't required yet. If you wanna do some, go for it. I've got a few things in the way of doing mine.
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Sick88Tbird on January 09, 2006, 05:31:15 PM
I don't have time to read this whole post right now, but it sounds like an awesome idea. I had an '84 F-150 with the 300 and the NP-435 trans. I put some traction bars on that pig with a 3" open exhaust after the first cat(which had no guts left to it) and used it to race civics on the weekends. Awesome engine, awesome reliability. I love the idea of 7 main caps for 6 cylinders versus 5 main caps for 8 cylinders. If you can do it, DO IT!
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 84t-bird on January 09, 2006, 05:35:28 PM
this weekend im going to start measuring to see if it can actuly be done in an economical fasion. i need to get the 302 running anyway so i can get the engine in the garrage put into the truck but then the one in the truck will be ready to be rebuilt and put in the car if i have the funding to do it.
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Haystack on January 09, 2006, 06:42:50 PM
another
*bump*
TTTtttttt.....
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: Bird351 on January 09, 2006, 07:21:41 PM
That would be great if someone else beat me/us to it. Whomever does it first can give some useful feedback to the rest of us who are interested.. hopefully make it easier.
It was pointed out to me that it would be less unique if more people did it.. well, true.. but still, even if a dozen of us (for example) did it, that's 12 T-birds/Cougars/Mark VIIs among how many? (not counting the turbo-diesel I6 Marks) Those of you looking for uniqueness could probably live with that kind of numbers.
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 84t-bird on January 09, 2006, 07:38:45 PM
thats alot more unique than leaving the 302 in it or building a ricer or having a v8 at all
Title: EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)
Post by: 302Fairmont on January 23, 2006, 10:19:51 PM
I dont want to beat a dead horse - but I'd also like to see a 300 in a fox car.
Im surprised no one has mentioned using a 240 car oil pan. That would hopefully solve any oil pan clearance problems - or at least come alot closer. The 240 was a short-stroke 300 that was identical in all external dimensions, and available in full size Ford cars in the mid to late 60's. The biggest problem would be locating a passenger car pan, but I'm sure hooking up with a Galaxie or other full size car club could net you some results.
I also think the fox I6 crossmember would be a must - inline six (small or big) motor mount bosses sit much further up front on the block that V8s - I watched some friends learn this the hard way when replacing a 300 with a 302 in a Van and using the OG crossmember - the 302 was so far forward it poked out of the grille.
And my snap-judgement is that the the Stock EFI intake would be virtually impossible to fit under the hood without looking stupid - it curves up and sits over the valve cover (remember that already tall 10" deck?)
but i'd really like to see this done, in fact I have a spare 300 that I might save for a Tbird or Cougar when the 'Mont is done.
Cheap and effective - carb'd 300 with a 4bbl intake, 500-600 CFM carb, opened up heads (maybe with SBC valves if you shiznit money), hot street cam, flat tops + big carb'd chamber for around 9:1, and some kind of header (probably have to hack up a truck header for the & stubs then have the rest fabricated). Then an AOD, and 3.55 gears. Simple, Quick, Good highway cruising - and all without breaking the bank.
I couldnt even imagine the horror of trying to make an EEC work in a swap like this - As far as EFI goes, I'd just megasquirt the and be done with it