87 20th anny coug 5.0L 378,000 original miles
cranks no start.
fuel pres - 40psi during crank
spark tester at a random plug wire shows pulsating light
swapped remote ignitioin module (my mod to the TFI), still no start
Noid light inserted into an injector plug , during crank the light blinks very quickly
so it apears i have spark, fuel and injector reaction but still no start.
i was under the impression that if the hall effect was bad that my noid light would not blink but it is and in my opinion it seems to blink whay quicker than i expect during crank. AS in i thought the injector would only blink when its respective stator would pass through the hull effect. what i am seeing is something like several blinks during a rotor button single revolution.
any suggestions or thoughts? im swapping the dizzy tomorrow meaing i have rebuild one beause my standby unit never got rebuilt like i intended way back when.
i am very surprised that i have everything i need for the engine to start & run. an almost impossible situation again lands in my lap.
So what's the rest of the situation?
Has the car been sitting? Just put it back together? Just out of the blue stopped starting?
Bad PIP module in the distributor "usually" doesnt result in no start condition.
How did you know you had fuel pressure? If you are getting fuel pressure im not going to mention checking the ecu for bad capacitors.
You didnt mention anything about timing, did you check it?
the 20th is my daily driver still.
it just failed to start today. It was out 4 days ago.
i hooked up a fuel pres tester during cranking to conclude that the pump was moving fuel.
I will check the timing tomorrow morning,, should've dont that already but didnt think to
I will also random check a couple 5v ckts in the engine bay.
and ,,, duh,, i guess i will pull codes & might as well compression test also while im troubleshooting this.
I may make it a youtube on my "I Fix It All" channel. t
i may title it "Ford 5.0L- you have AIR, Fuel and spark yet no start". yes this may sound misleading because its likely impossible but....... stranger things have happened.
On a positive note though atleast im not dealing with canbus stuff!
i do have my ign sw start & run & accy ckts slave relayed out proper for many years now.
no modifications to speak of though,, all original ,, never opened up , been running rotella 15w40 since 08 when i got it from a seller here.
i agree on the pip comment,, but i dont even get a hint that it even sounds like its going to fire,,, it just sounds like its just spinning. I just thought that one way to determine if the pip is bad is to see if the injectors are getting eec signal. i was hoping to see no pulsing on the injector to confirm but it did pulse and rather quickly .
Yes impretty sure the caps could be redone as well,, ive got plenty of radial electrolytics to pick from. i think last i checked though i had to dig deep for the proper 10uf one on my son's 88bird. Im sure my 1990 351 bronco would appreciate the same attention.
Since you checked everything already, I would spray some starting fluid in it to see if it fire and if it sounds okay. All this cranking do you smell fuel?
Did you say the motor has never been opened? 378k on the nylon coated timing chain gear?
no fuel smell, it didnt take me many cranks to get the information i have now. all in i have about 20min into this troubleshooting.
i hear you on the timing set!!,, new set still in the box.
I have been afraid to mess with the bolts on the timing cover ,, them breaking off or something.
i am absolutly postive there is a substantial amount of slack that the eec is maxed out on how much it can compensate for.
i got to nothing today,, and perhaps maybe tomorrow either due to temps outside but i may try anyway.
today got absorbed by property tax, some misc shopping then getting back to find out my partition in cyber monday is required.
i'll make a list....
pull codes
inject fuel into the TB to see if the motor even hits
check for blown fuses
check timing
check compression
check misc 5v ckts
maybe swap in another TFI spare just to be sure i didnt swap a bad for bad
so from my to do list above
codes are pointless, i needed to take the coug batt over to the bronco yesterday. then charge the bronco's for the coug.
i could pull memory codes i guess
spraying fuel in the TB did not generate a hint of the engine even wanting to "hit",, just engine whirl , no hits
no blown fuses in my fuse panel or my remote slave relay fuse panel
5.2v on my 5v reference up in the engine bay
did not swap in "another" TFI on the dizzy.
I did check timing and it appears i cant see the marks show up so it looks like i jumped time. compression test would have confirmed i bet.
tomorrow i will dial the crank to zero TDC and pull the #1 plug then feel where the piston is with a screw driver.
im 90% sure i jumped time but tomorrow will tell me more. I'm betting #1 piston is way down the tube.
GOOD TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rotated crank to tdc and the piston was really high which sorta sounds good.
I observed the rotor button location and it appeared to be a tad bit too far away from dizzy cap #1 post than normal even with 12 or so deg BTDC figured in.
so............ i figured there's only one thing left to do in order to be 99.9% sure i jumped time so i did a compression test on a few random cylinders.
cly 1, 2, 3, 5 & 6 all had about 90psi.
this low reading on each is equal wish is good.
it also tells me that the likelyhood i jumped ONE tooth might just be the case due to having such a high psi in my broken state.
so.......................................... now i will pray all the timing cover bolts come out. if they dont,, well, thats going to really suck but i suppose thats what a drill and thread repair kits are made for.
I think for this situation i am in, i will be removing the header panel and front bumper cover & bumper.
Life is going to be so much easier doing this job with the motor in the car. at 375k miles though.......urrgh.
what i am actually attempting to do is run this rotella 15w40 motor for as long as i can to set some sort of personal record which i hope other people here have tried or are doing. Proving its hard to break a pushrod motor is finally becoming mainstream on a lot fo the car channels on youtube lately. All these miles are highway i might add,, well 80% of them are.
I think step 1 is to heat each bolt before i losen then,, and maybe use my batt powered impact set on its lowest setting possible to shock each bolt loose.
Some advice before tearing into that with an impact, if you have the opportunity to let it sit some go pick up a can of the stuff called Free All and spray that on them, spray the :p of them let them soak for a day do it again the next day. Then use a breaker bar on them instead of an impact.
Works really well on exhaust stuff this way and my buddy did his timing chain on his 5.0 without breaking any bolts.
The kit for new ones is expensive ive noticed.
i'll find that stuff and maybe do a youtube review.
I was going to use candle wax and torch,, it wicks in as it gets heated. check out the vids on using wax on bolts to loosen them.
For the bolts,, ive thought about an alternative ,, use threaded studs with nuts custom cut to length. i actually dont want to put the oem bolt kit back in if i have to. ive seen those Long shank bolts corroded down 50% or more of their original thickness.
now i think of it,, maybe stainless threaded stock would be the best. then from now and until next time all i have to do is take off all the Nylock nuts i imagine i would use.
im back with an update,,,, yes Mikey, original gear set... motor never opened up.
here is the vid but ............ you all are not going to believe what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjVRYqL4dXU
enjoy
That'll do it.
:toothless:
Looks awful dry in there. However that chain is supposed to get lubed aint working.
Is the shallow end of the pan in the front?
Can you look in or stick something in the pan to see if there's oil there?
Maybe it is supposed to splash or sling oil up from the pan.
Sorry I didn't get to check in again until now.
A long long time ago on my '79 Bird, I had the timing chain jump a tooth upon starting. Unfortunately I was a couple towns away from home but was able to get it running barely by messing with the timing to limp home.
I would advice dropping the pan to check the screen at minimum or put a new oil pump and pickup in. I am amazed that timing chain lasted that long.
yes,, there is oil up front in the front sump area.
its my understanding that the crank slings oil up to the cam lobes & to the dizzy gear. the dizzy gear slings oil out to the timing chain.,,, then the front part of the oil pan plays catch. I agree with you though. Ive just never had any indication that im not oiling right. The car did sit for a good while before i got the cover off so it makes sense that things were not "dripping" wet.
I hope im right on how the chain acctually gets lube becasue i dont know how it can any other way. I thought Turbocoupe50 told me about this a few years ago when i asked him about this.
if im diving into the oil pump,,, then im also getting motor mounts. im betting the mounts have split in two by now.
this oil pan gasket is rediculous though,, its a rubber gasket with metal washers at every bolt opening. they seem to want to just fall out,, at least the ones up front under the timing cover did so i deleted them.
Id rather have the ford explorer style rubber coated metal ones
im just getting over a bug i caught but did make time to order some parts i dont have on hand like...
motor mounts - i bet both of mine are split in half
ujoints
Brake Rotors
Brake pads
I know it was mentioned i should swap in a new oil pump. Has anyone been able to swap an oil pump with the engine in the car?
I know i plan to jack up the engine as high as possiblle then block it,,, will this give me room to get the pump out? if yes,, then this means i can do a new one peice gasket as well.
I was able to do a pump in my bronco,, by dropping the pan and stuffing my hands in between the pan and block,, it was tight but i did it. on the coug though,, i think even having the motor blocked up it will still be tricky.
Glad you got it figured out, but I am trying to figure out what you did to eat up the timing chain like that. I had to swap my timing chain cover gasket on my old 86 that had around 350k miles, and the chain was loose, but it did not have the sharp teeth like yours, and I beat the ever living out of that car. It's interesting to see all the nylon, I only had a few flakes left on mine, and they were noticable orangish tan.
It took me about two 12 hours straight 2 days to swap the oil pan in car. It is much easier to pull the motor. If you leave the ac/ps bracket in the engine bay, I can had the motor out in about an hour. Much easier then fighting an engine stand/jacks if you have a motor lift.
Also, glad to see you are uploading, I went ahead and subscribed. We need more fox cougar bird stuff. I try to check the forums, but I rarely see enough traffic to feel like logging in and my saved login is always expired.
The double row h.o. timing chain also fits and last one I bought was the same price, I didn't see that mentioned, but also did not finish the video fully yet.
haystack, i do have a double roller going in.
as for the wear,, you and softtouch have me twitching now. he said "it looks kinda dry in there,, now your asking bout the wear.
I never got an indication of low oil press at any time.
since i have the front cover parts off,, i think ill do the following...............
pull the dizzy
dump some oil in the pan from the front
run a drill to drive the pump,, CCW of course
then watch and listen and see if oil is raining down back into the pan.
im on what i believe is my last day of this bug i caught and of course i was nice enough to share it with the wife. after im sure she;'s back up and running , i will get back on this.
does anyone have an actual account of doing or knowing of anyone changing out an oil pump in this platform with the engine in the car?
if the engine comes out.. its not going back in with just an oil pump....
my son has always said i need a spare built out motor on standby always for either he or I so we can quickly swap and be back up and running within a couple hours. Im starting to think that may need to become an option.
My old 86 had around 350k miles when something broke in the front suspension (car had lots of rust and was repaired from a bad accident badly) and the sway bar started banging against the oil pan. I swapped a ton of stuff in trying to repair it, even doing two oil pans from the sway bar rubbing a hole in it. Eventually, everything broke, and it just wasn't worth fixing anymore. In about a months time frame, I lost brakes, water pump, timing chain cover gasket, blew a hole in the radiator, heater core went, blower motor went, and the ignition switch melted. I could no longer daily drove it and gave up.
I purchased the car with around 250k miles. The valve stem seals were shot, and so were the oil rings. At first it used about 1 quart every tank of gas, but it quickly got to the point that I was dumping a quart in every 100 miles or so.
Eventually I just got to the point that I picked up a gallon of oil Everytime I went to Walmart, and I would wait until the oil light came on, and I would dump the whole gallon in after I got to my destination.
I mercilessly beat on that car. I have an 85 gt block that has been sitting on an engine stand, and I have tried to blow up every 302 I've owned hoping to get to use it. It's been on that stand for over 20 years now.
My most recent 86 tbird, I purchased with 130k miles or so, and I have daily driven it for almost 8 years. I have never changed the oil on it, even after taking it all apart to do the head gasket when I found a broken head bolt. I have not looked at that timing chain, but it's sitting at about 260k miles now, and I have parked it for a wintertime revamp, and I would be very interested to see what the timing chain looks like. I don't even know what the oil filter looks like, but I'm willing to bet it is starting to rust.
I am 100% sure you can get to the oil pump if you can get the pan out, but it really is much easier and quicker to pull the motor. I have done an oil pan gasket about 5 times trying to keep the motor in the car, and every time, I have ended up with a worse seal then when I started.
what i meant was raising,,, blocking up and then lowering the pan so i can reach in on either side to remove & replace.... like i know can be done on the trucks with 302/351 easily. meaning the pan stays put,, just sort of flops around under there.
I can buy more clearance by simply removing the two rack/pinion mounting bolts as well. this will let the rack sag a bit giving up more room to the pan.
good story btw.. yours have always been interesting. My son's grew up with the occassional haystack car troubles stories.
by the way, i also have tfi / pip bench testing (six parts) up on my channel as well.
Scott, I have done an oil pan swap in the convertible. What I did was to jack the body up as high as possible (on jack stands), remove the motor mount pins, and put a jack underneath the transmission and remove that crossmember, keeping it level with tension on the jack. Then as I cranked up on the cherry picker (engine), I would gradually lower the transmission jack. That kept the engine/trans combo together, just tilted up at an angle. The engine basically needs to touch the firewall, and the jack might need lowered all the way down at the trans, but this gives enough clearance from the K-member to unbolt the pan. I also removed the pump and let it drop into the pan, then you can take them both out the front. It's not fun but this method does work. I didn't even have to disconnect any wiring harnesses (although I did unbolt the MAP sensor and let it hang on top of the intake). If you're mostly stock, clearance between the engine and firewall shouldn't really be an issue.
we are oiling !!!! see video below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdgoslnQ_RA
Opinion, considering how deep you already are here at this point would dropping the k member to get the oil pan out be considered excessive? Its not like you are doing this on the street.
Doing all this finagling to get it out and to get it back in just increases the chance for something to go wrong and having to redo it.
Well that answers that question. The pressurized oil to the bearings runs out the shafts. Then runs out the sprockets by centrifugal force (and some gravity I suppose) to the chain.
Good job proving that out.
thanks softtouch,,, but..
one thing i did not show in the vid which answered the question was this.
when i ran the drill the boss where i had my socket inserted down over the pump drive shaft, that whole area fill up with oil really fast. This means that the actual dizzy gear itself will sling oil as well and likely be the biggest contributioin to lube.
interesting timing cover thing i never noticed until now......
maybe this is why you are leaking at the top left and right of your cover???????
https://youtu.be/4KyS-1ptKeI
Im not a 5.0 guy but iirc those holes are for the clockwise rotation waterpumps.
Room for days and days and days................
I am bewildered by what all the hub bub is about doing an oil pump or pan gasket in the car.
remove starter, motor mounts, raise engine and it drops down a whole bunch.
oil pump & starter on order.
https://youtu.be/zWGRmr1n8VU
Bench testing an oem 302 oil pump just for the sake of saving it as a spare or not.
if i can get a gear set,, i will save it back.
So,, as advised earlier,,, getting a new pump turned out to be the best choice here. I did not go with a high volume ,, just a standard.
I did mis- identify the year of the casting number on the pump housing,, begs for forgiveness, C2xx would be 1962.,,, not 72.
https://youtu.be/ABdssPdycco
up and running......... take a listen
https://youtu.be/Uf1fzSaYl7c
here is a vd of the 20th back in the wild
https://youtu.be/4rC6WGK3vs8?feature=shared
Sounds good!
compression numbers coming today as the final update.
part 9 vid done.. compression test complete and i will be honest with you all,,,, i was surprised with the outcome. its almost jaw dropping to be frank.
https://youtu.be/AcP7DmVlhBQ