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Topic: Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline) (Read 8910 times) previous topic - next topic

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #15
You say alcohol-based fuel for internal combustion engines won't last long?

I gotta say bullshiznit on that...

Also, if you build a higher compression engine, say more so than for normal octane rated gas...the alcohol will give better performace than the equal amount of gas in a purpose-built engine....after all, there's a reason it's used in the big-ass drag cars.

Alcohol fuels are the way of the future..just not produced so much from corn...you can ferment almost anything and make alcohol from it...wood chips...etc etc

Hydrogen would be a good solution...but you know how explosive that shiznit is? ;)
'84 Mustang
'98 Explorer 5.0
'03 Focus, dropped a valve seat. yay. freakin' split port engines...
'06 Explorer EB 4.6

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #16
The corn belt speaketh :hick:

This isn't a thread about the future of ethanol, it was just a comment I made to deflect from a diversion by another poster (who I think agrees with this statement.) I've been promoting the idea of genetically engineered high-yield ethanol producing crops for years now, but it's not as simple as I first thought it was. We'll see if the scientists and farmers can get together and solve the energy/dollar issue and then weigh that against food prices. It's still an open matter.
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #17
Keep in mind that efficiency was never a selling point of Ethanol. Being a renewable resource that isn't sucked out of Saudi soil or massacring the Canadian Boreal Forest. The reason to use Ethanol is to burn a cleaner fuel and use less oil to get it. Anyone who told you it was for boosting efficiency or saving money was lying to make their point (that article you posted) or was just plain ignorant.

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #18
How many times do I have to say that I posted this because I thought it was interesting that Ethanol blends may not HURT mileage as much as expected - which is all the paper discusses - only one person having actually read it best I can tell!!

Quote
PURPOSE OF THE STUDY
As ethanol production and use has expanded from coast to coast in the United States,
increased public discussion and media attention has focused on various properties of
those blends versus standard unleaded gasoline. Among the most frequent matters for
debate has been the matter of fuel efficiency and the resulting effect on cost of vehicle
operation.

Quite often, opinion stated as fact has made its way into the public arena, in forms as
varied as Letters to the Editor claiming mileage losses of 15% or more, to an unscientific
test performed by a television station that showed a ten percent blend of ethanol
performed worse than unleaded, but provided more miles per gallon than premium. While
letters to the editor do evoke a certain amount of skepticism from readers, traditional
media reports often carry more weight. In the TV segment mentioned, the station clearly
stated that the test was unscientific. But the viewer was clearly left with the impression that
it was more costly to use ethanol-blended gasoline.

In a more subtle manner, ethanol’s efficiency has been brought into question as
representatives of the automotive and oil industries have stated at various times that a ten
percent blend of ethanol provides 3% less fuel efficiency. These comments were based
on the fact that a ten percent blend of ethanol has a BTU content 3% lower than gasoline,
and the assumption that the lower BTU content would result in 1-to-1 reduction in mileage
per gallon.

The ethanol industry has traditionally held the belief that ethanol’s properties as an
oxygenate would provide more complete burning of the base fuel, and offset some of the
BTU loss. Furthermore, since ethanol blends are traditionally less expensive than straight
gasoline, it stands to reason that if MPG of both types of fuel were similar, the ethanol
blend would be the better value in terms of cost per mile of operation.
When ACE responded to negative media accounts regarding ethanol blend fuel economy,
reporters typically asked for dospoogeentation of our statements. There appeared to be very
little information available. It was decided that ACE should commission a pilot study, to
determine whether there were variances in MPG between ethanol blends in gasoline.
Prior to ordering this pilot study, ACE was able to locate only one study on fuel economy
variances between ethanol-blended and non-ethanol-blended gasoline. A 1996 study by
the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee compared several types of oxygenated
reformulated gasoline to conventional unleaded. The sample also used only 5.7% ethanol
as opposed to the more common 10% blend, and several of the ethanol fuel samples
used had wide variations in BTU content. The study used vehicles manufactured from
1979 to 1994, and the sample vehicles and drivers showed some very wide deviations
from expected results. Even so, the overall variance in those tests showed that ethanolblended
RFG provided 98% of the MPG performance of conventional unleaded gasoline.

CHOICE OF FUELS TO BE TESTED

In addition to questions about E10’s efficiency versus conventional gasoline, an effort was
underway in the State of Minnesota to pass legislation that would require 20% of the
state’s fuel be ethanol by 2010. While an E20 blend was not the target of the legislation, a
decision was made to test an E20 blend (20% ethanol, 80% gasoline) to gather
information that could be relevant to that legislative effort. The fuel would be tested in the
same unmodified, non-flexible fuel vehicle, with special attention paid to any operational
variations in the engine performance (“trouble” indicator lights, hesitation, etc.) in addition
to mileage differences.

Also, due to past studies that showed some differences between ethanol blends and
conventional gasoline were reduced as ethanol percentage approached 25 to 30%, an
E30 blend (30% ethanol, 70% gasoline) was also tested. As was the case with E10 and
E20, the fuel would be tested in the same unmodified, non-flex-fuel vehicle, with special
attention paid to any operational variations in the engine performance (“trouble” indicator
lights, hesitation, etc.) in addition to mileage differences.

Finally, in earlier meetings regarding the possible project, Allen Kasperson (the individual
contracted to perform the test) mentioned that he had denatured fuel with soy diesel and
isopentane, and that the original tests of Reid vapor pressure (RVP) had shown lower
RVP in blends made with ethanol denatured in that fashion. This fuel blend was added to
the list of fuels to be tested.
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #19
You start a thread about an article covering efficiency differences between ethanol blends and are surprised people talked about it? This isn't a Journal, man. Hah.

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #20
They basically determined mileage differences based on real-world testing. I thought it was interesting to see that mileage wasn't as bad as predicted based on BTU content - little did I know that it was actually a political issue and that everybody would get all weird about it.

It's a mileage study!

:hick:
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #21
Ethanol is a huge political issue. And if you open the door to conversation, expect it to waver a bit here and there. Heck, I've had to bite my tongue twice in this thread to stop myself from replying to the Hydrogen comments. I don't think anyone is getting weird about it, but you might be taking things a bit personal, thought I don't know how. ;)

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #22
Naw, I just thought that the mileage thing was very interesting - especially the E30 which seemed to get only 5% lower mileage versus the 10% lower energy content.

I think it's within reasonable manners to ask people to comment on the topic as posted - it's my job as the Original Poster :hick:
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #23
The thing I'm confused by is the 10% power loss. I was under the impression that Ethanol blended fuels increased output in E85 vehicles.

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #24
Ahhh, now we're getting into a cool technical discussion as to making "more" from "less" with Ethanol!

This is where the discussion goes to the lower energy content, the 104 octane rating of E85, the very high compression ratio that allows (requires for best efficiency), and the charge cooling effect that alcohol fuels provide. (and low volatility that causes cold climate starting issues, water absorbtion, corrosiveness etc...).

This topic can be quite complicated and interesting - but it requires some research and it doesn't hurt if you're an engineer too - lol!
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #25
I'll e the first to tel lyou all that as a farmer, there's no way this country (much less it's FUBAR'd economy) could make the ethanol AND feed us, etc to totallay replace petroleum based fuels.
Ain't gonna happen, period.

But as a supplemental fuel, to help reduce emissions AND foreign oil dependence, yeah, it IS the future...

I think in the years to come we'll see alcohol plants distilling from most any organic materiel...and I'm all for it.
 
Gas here is as cheap as it's been in the last 5 years, but I'm not so naive to realize as soon as Obama runs his "relief" plan through, shiznit will go back up. What most people don't realize is..petroleum based products are  near everywhere...you use ammonia and fertilizer to grow corn crops for example...those don't come come from a tree or a lake..they come from petroleum (in part at least.)

My point is this: we as a nation, as a planet, have to investigate renewable resources..because if we don't...we may as well figure out to live on Mars...maybe that's a bit drastic, and past our lifetimes..but still.
We gotta take the least destructive path...maybe the Feds should offer bigger tax breaks on flex-fuel vehicles...?
'84 Mustang
'98 Explorer 5.0
'03 Focus, dropped a valve seat. yay. freakin' split port engines...
'06 Explorer EB 4.6

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #26
Quote from: oldraven;250463
The thing I'm confused by is the 10% power loss. I was under the impression that Ethanol blended fuels increased output in E85 vehicles.


Not the case, actually...even though those vehicles' engines are able to burn it, they power output is actually less because alky likes/needs more compression to equal the power output of gas, at least the lower octanes of gas.

Then there's timing advancement, cooling factor, etc.

Now if you had a tuned, higher than normal compression engine, and let's say a "flip-chip" in the eec, one tune for gas, and the other tune(s) for alcohol, now that'd be a cool setup, but as long as the engine is used for both fuels, there's always gonna be a trade-off.
With the higher CR for alcohol, then you'd have to use higher octane of gasoline, thereby negating the cost savings of alcohol, assuming that you ever would use gas in it...which is almost a given, as E85 isn't available just everywhere, even today.

So it's all splitting hairs, when it gets down to it..lol
'84 Mustang
'98 Explorer 5.0
'03 Focus, dropped a valve seat. yay. freakin' split port engines...
'06 Explorer EB 4.6

Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #27
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;250592
I'll e the first to tell you all that as a farmer, there's no way this country (much less it's FUBAR'd economy) could make the ethanol AND feed us, etc to totallay replace petroleum based fuels.
Ain't gonna happen, period.

But as a supplemental fuel, to help reduce emissions AND foreign oil dependence, yeah, it IS the future...

I think in the years to come we'll see alcohol plants distilling from most any organic materiel...and I'm all for it.
 
Gas here is as cheap as it's been in the last 5 years, but I'm not so naive to realize as soon as Obama runs his "relief" plan through, shiznit will go back up. What most people don't realize is..petroleum based products are  near everywhere...you use ammonia and fertilizer to grow corn crops for example...those don't come come from a tree or a lake..they come from petroleum (in part at least.)

My point is this: we as a nation, as a planet, have to investigate renewable resources..because if we don't...we may as well figure out to live on Mars...maybe that's a bit drastic, and past our lifetimes..but still.
We gotta take the least destructive path...maybe the Feds should offer bigger tax breaks on flex-fuel vehicles...?


I pretty much agree with all that you've said here. If the future is using alcohol as a suppliment to gasoline until we come up with an alternative sustainable fuel, then I agree - I'd even like to see higher % ethanol blends. Perhaps some scientist will engineer a super high-yield crop for ethanol - who knows? I hope the stimulous package is successful at upping demand - I'll take keeping my job versus higher gas prices any day. We're being forced to burn up vacation time to save the company money for now, but layoffs are inevitable.

Oh, and some with tuners like the TwEECer are already experimenting with E85 tunes, though purpose-built engines would be much more efficient than converting a typical gasoline engine. E85 is very hard to find in the NE - last I checked I'd have to burn a lot of fuel to get to the nearest station.
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #28
I think ethanol is the worst idea you could come up with. You get less power, less gas mileage, and it cost the same as regular gas. Really your paying for less. Just because it burns cleaner doesn't mean you should use it. I was the dumb ass grinning at the pump every time it hit above $60. Gas is cheap now, but it will go up again. I got really pissed off when it went up by 6 cents. Everyone at work just said "its better then $4.30 a gallon". I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The less people use gas, the more it is going to cost. I don't know realistically why gas actually dropped in price since I started driving, but it won't last long. They know we'll pay $4 or more a gallon. So there gonna get back up to it. The more alcohol they put in it, the more you pay.
Quote from: jcassity
I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
Hooligans! 
1988 Crown Vic wagon. 120K California car. Wifes grocery getter. (junked)
1987 Ford Thunderbird LX. 5.0. s.o., sn-95 t-5 and an f-150 clutch. Driven daily and going strong.
1986 cougar.
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Fuel Economy Study (Ethanol blends versus std. gasoline)

Reply #29
Quote from: Haystack;250619
I think ethanol is the worst idea you could come up with. You get less power, less gas mileage, and it cost the same as regular gas. Really your paying for less. Just because it burns cleaner doesn't mean you should use it. I was the dumb ass grinning at the pump every time it hit above $60. Gas is cheap now, but it will go up again. I got really pissed off when it went up by 6 cents. Everyone at work just said "its better then $4.30 a gallon". I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The less people use gas, the more it is going to cost. I don't know realistically why gas actually dropped in price since I started driving, but it won't last long. They know we'll pay $4 or more a gallon. So there gonna get back up to it. The more alcohol they put in it, the more you pay.


You didn't read a single post in this thread :rollin:

(OK, you may have read one post, but you missed the point entirely)
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