E85 Reply #16 – April 06, 2007, 09:29:22 AM Quote from: JeremyB;138553I apologize for not reading the linked thread...but the conlcusion I have made is that the current price of E85 doesn't outweight the mpg decrease you see with it. Anybody have prices that makes it cheaper to run E85.If you have a turbo system, you can run more timing...but it still costs more gaswise. However, sometimes one wants power more than money.The turbo guys aren't suffering that much of a mileage loss...I think the actual mileage loss will vary.I'm not even sure what E85 is running these days..... Quote Selected
E85 Reply #17 – April 06, 2007, 03:14:02 PM Quote from: Chuck W;138578The turbo guys aren't suffering that much of a mileage loss...I think the actual mileage loss will vary.I was basing my information on this thread. His fuel mpg decreased by ~27%, but his fuel cost only went down 22%. Actual fuel costs were $1.50 for E85 and $2.25 for unleaded (at the time).Actual fuel mileage will vary, but the variation is mostly on the poorer side since the lambda for peak power with E85 is lower than unleaded gasoline. Unless you go crazy with enrichment, the % loss should be fairly uniform since your reducing the energy density of the fuel a uniform amount.E85 has approximately 65% of the energy density of gasoline. You'll get a bit of efficiency increase from decreased pumping losses, which gets up to ~70-75% of gasoline's fuel efficiency. Dedicated E85 engines fare better since they have increased compression ratios (because E85's octane is far higher than std. unleaded gasoline). Quote Selected
E85 Reply #18 – April 06, 2007, 06:26:01 PM I guess that's where i get lost. if the octane is higher, wouldn't the efficiency be better and the milage better? isn't that why they offer 92% octane gas? isn't it supposed to be better than the 87% octane? so why would E85 be not as efficient if it has a higher octane?? Quote Selected
E85 Reply #19 – April 06, 2007, 07:50:49 PM The higher octane allows you to increase the timing a few degrees, but the timing increase isn't going to make up for the 35% less energy per lb that the E85 has compared to gasoline.I threw all the 2007 FFV vehicles into a spreadsheet and compared their city and highway EPA mileage estimates. From a pool of 33 vehicles-E85 got 74.6% of gas's city mpgE85 got 74.1% of gas's highway mpg Quote Selected
E85 Reply #20 – April 06, 2007, 08:12:13 PM Ok, so what is E85s price per gallon? You see were comparing economy the wrong way here. Miles per gallon doesn't mean didly $h|t to me for comparison. What I want to know is miles per dollar. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #21 – April 06, 2007, 08:25:47 PM Quote from: *MAYHEM*;138654Ok, so what is E85s price per gallon? You see were comparing economy the wrong way here. Miles per gallon doesn't mean didly $h|t to me for comparison. What I want to know is miles per dollar.Yes, I realize that.Using E85fuelpices as a source - 21 data points from around the US.The cheapest E85 station cost had E85 for 75% of gasolineThe most expensive E85 station cost had E85 for 100% of gasolineThe average E85 station had E85 for 89% of the price of gasoline. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #22 – April 06, 2007, 10:07:17 PM Quote from: JeremyB;138658Yes, I realize that. Using E85fuelpices as a source - 21 data points from around the US. The cheapest E85 station cost had E85 for 75% of gasolineThe most expensive E85 station cost had E85 for 100% of gasoline The average E85 station had E85 for 89% of the price of gasoline. So, using the average cost differential and considering gas is just below $3.00/ gal here and rounding it up to an even $3.00 for calculating purposes, my stock 5.0 EFI getting roughly 25 mpg and a 22 gallon tank: Fuel / Cost per gal / cost per fill / tot mi/fill / Cost/miE85.. / $2.67 / $58.74 / 412 mi / $0.144 Gas.. / $3.00 / $66.00 / 550 mi / $0.12 Now we have some base "facts" to work with. So now let's consider performance. Does E85's higher octane rating give me more power? Will my car accelerate better with it? If so it might just be worth and extra 2.4 cents per mile. What about engine maint.? E85 burns cleaner and cooler which means less oil breakdown and dirt not to mention less acid in the oil (by pruduct of gasoline). So I may be able to extend the life of my oil by, let's go conservative here, 500 miles? Cost of an oil change with Mobil 1 is around $40.00 (with filter) every 2000 mi (on gas). Adding 500 miles between changes saves me.... (clickety-click on the calculator) Hmmmm..... 2 cents a mile. EDIT: Just took into cosideration less heat and cleaner burning would extend the overall life of the engine, less worries about varnish, less worries about fuel line freeze in the winter (main ingrediant of fuel line antifreeze is acohol), longer spark plug life.... And of course the main reason for switching to E85 is to get a cleaner environment. Hell that's worth half a penny a mile on it's own. Tough call isn't it? Quote Selected
E85 Reply #23 – April 06, 2007, 11:18:19 PM Using your numbers, the longer oil change interval saves you .4 cents/mile, not 2 cents/mile. Using those numbers, gasoline is 2 cents/mile cheaper. Which comes out to saving $200 for every 10,000 miles driven. On the plus side, you get about 5% more power with the E85. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #24 – April 07, 2007, 12:42:38 AM Not to hijack this thread or anything, but is this E85 fuel really catching on down south? Do most stations carry the stuff now?We do not have any ethanol blended gas available yet in Manitoba. We probably still sell all the E we produce at the real Canadian Liquor Store. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #25 – April 07, 2007, 06:56:42 AM Quote from: JeremyB;138688Using your numbers, the longer oil change interval saves you .4 cents/mile, not 2 cents/mile. Using those numbers, gasoline is 2 cents/mile cheaper. Which comes out to saving $200 for every 10,000 miles driven. On the plus side, you get about 5% more power with the E85. Using your correction, E85 would be 1.6 cents a mile cheaper. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #26 – April 07, 2007, 08:05:31 AM Quote from: merccougar50;138711Not to hijack this thread or anything, but is this E85 fuel really catching on down south? Do most stations carry the stuff now?We do not have any ethanol blended gas available yet in Manitoba. We probably still sell all the E we produce at the real Canadian Liquor Store.Every gas station around has a 10% blend, and thats all you can get. Quote Selected
E85 Reply #27 – April 07, 2007, 11:42:47 AM Quote from: *MAYHEM*;138717Using your correction, E85 would be 1.6 cents a mile cheaper.When compared directly, E85 is 2.4 cents/mile more expensive than gasoline.Getting 500 extra miles from a $40 2000 mile oil change interval saves you .4 cents/mile. So 2.4 - .4 = 2.0 cent/mile. E85 is 2.0 cents/mile more expensive. Would you like me to post the spreadsheet I used to do all the calculations? Quote Selected
E85 Reply #28 – April 07, 2007, 05:21:41 PM Sorry, misread your last post. That's what happens when your cat steals your glasses in the night. I'll have to find the calculator again and see where I scwewed up. Quote Selected
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