I have a 8.8" Rear End from a 88 TurboCoupe and want to put it in my 88 Cougar which has a 7.5". I want to keep my rear drum brakes, and accoding to the 8.8 TurboCoupe paragraph on Cool Cats (http://www.coolcats.net/tech/general/axleinfo.html) it can be done by swapping the 7.5" axle into the 8.8" rear.
Has anyone ever really done this before? I have two problems:
1) The 7.5" Axle does not go in enough leaving a much larger gap for the drum brake shell plate from where the wheel stud plate is.
2) There is a bracket that has to be cut for the rear drum plate to sit flush against the mount. Hate to do this because maybe I will do rear disks some day...
See the Pictures:
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/inside.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/7r5.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/8r8.jpg)
I kind of did this swap about a year ago and maintained the disk brakes but I used aftermarket mustang axles. I think the mustang axles are the same length as the cougar with drum brakes but I may be wrong. The reason I did this because I switched to a truck posi with 31 spline and mustang axles are easier to get then to custom make the t-bird ones.
I had to cut the mounting bracket for the disk brakes and mount it behind the . Had to be ajusted slightly with washers to center it. I cut the other bracket you wanted to cut and welded them so they were shorter. you may be able just to leave them off but the factory had them there so I left them there also. I did not use the dust sheild.
Don't know why your axles are too short?
See some pictures here, I hopes this helps.
http://www.msnusers.com/CadTBird/shoebox.msnw?Page=5
Good luck.
TED
I tried to reserch this for you but got all the more confused. Here's a post that will really confuse you.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2928&highlight=brakes+8.8
I guell all I know is that Mustang to 1993 will fit the TC housing but you have to move the disc brakes in.
TED
I believe the only solution for the bracket is to bend or cut it....
For the axles you can get some NAPA axle saver bearings(they are longer and extend outside the housing). This is what Ronnie(chrome302jr)did...
Thanks for all the info, its obvious its not a simple substitution :disappoin . That was a good past thread I missed on this.
It looks like the drum axle from the 7.5" rear needs to be at least 1/2 inch shorter to fit into the 8.8" rear to get the drum stuff to align right, just like Chrome302jr said. Chrome, if you are out there, how difficult was it to make it work?
So I have to ponder the options of:
1) Give up the 8.8" rear (along with ability to add quad shocks, and have a 3.55 gear with traction lok) and just keep the stock 7.5"
2) Update the 3.08 7.5" rear with a traction-lok differential (I may know where to find one ;)
3) Do the disk conversion..
4) Figure out if I have the skill to use spacers, axle saver, etc. to make the 7.5" axle work in the 8.8" like Chrome did..
Thanks All!
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/1rear.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/2rear.jpg)
To make it work, I guess something like this is needed:
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/3rear.jpg)
Mustang rears are 3/4" per side shorter than t-bird rears and therein lies your problem.
Just use the stock mustang drums.
He has a Turbo Coupe 8.8(same as Ronnie). The 8.8 TC housings are appearntly the same as a 8.8 Stang....
Hey man, sorry I didnt see this earlier. Im glad someone else experienced the same problem I did. As Tom said I used NAPA axle saver bearings, which placed the bearing surface and seal further out on the axles. This works for me and Ive ran it this way for over 3yrs. BUT, this method does not line up the drums perfectly on the brake shoes, it is about 1/8 still too far out, which has not presented a problem for me. Do you have the 8.8 axles?? Measure them if you do. Then measure the 7.5 axles. Id like to get some numbers on both. What I plan to do is order some Moser axles for a TC eventually. Thanks for posting pics to let folks know exactly the problem you ran into. Also I bent the TC disc brake bracket out of the way, and bolted on the drum brake assembly with my own bolts. The hardest part of installing the NAPA bearings is removing them with a slide hammer, after that its a simple matter of tapping them in. If your capable of the step required to remove the axles, and putting up with the ndous smell of gear lube, then you'll be fine. Let me know if you have any more questions. I cant reply on my hotmail account for the next week or so, so reply on here. Good luck.
Ronnie
JeremyB: I noticed the dimensional chart you had in the earlier post is all for drum brake vehicles. Do you also have a copy of the dimensional chart for the 8.8" and 7.5" Disk Brake configuration?
Here is what I found out:
The 88 TurboCoup 8.8" rear disk brake axle and 88 Cougar LS 7.5" rear axle are the same lengths, but the total length of each rear from tube-end to tube-end is different. Shorter on the TurboCoup in order to allow space for the ABS gear and rotors I guess.
TurboCoup 8.8" rear with disks
Axle Length 29.5" (from end of spine side of shaft to the inside of the wheel stud plate)
Rear End length 56"
Length of center pumpkin 16.5"
Cougar 7.5" Rear with drums
Axle Length 29.5" (from end of spine side of shaft to the inside of the wheel stud plate)
Rear End length 57 9/16"
Length of center pumpkin 16.5"
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/axle.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/reardim.jpg)
Ok then, that confirms it. The 8.8 rear IS narrower than the 7.5 rear end. So, who on here has aftermarket axles in a TC 8.8 WITH drum brakes. Would Moser be able to make them?
Do you think the stock Mustang axles would work with the T-bird/Cougar drum brakes? If not I bit the stock Mustang brakes would work just fine.
TED
I have used a mustang 8.8 with the cougar 10" drum bakes with out any problems. I have just done this in May.
As it has been said, the mustang rear and axles (3/4" shorter per side) than the cougar/t-bird rear & axles. I don't have any dimensions at the current time to compare the turbo coupe rear to the mustang rear.
No. The disc version doesn't change any signification dimensions though.
I thought we'd gone through most of this discussion here (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2928). I'm more knowledgeable now than when I started the thread. ALL Fox/SN95(up to 1998) Mustangs, Mark VIIs, and 1983-85.5 Tbird/Cougars use the same width housing. The of the bunch is the 1985.5-87 Tbird/Cougar, whose - width is 1.5" wider. The only thing that confuses me is that the drum offset is different between the earlier and later Tbird axles. One would think that wider axles + wider housing = same drum, but it doesn't.
The earlier axles have a bit of an offset.-----------The later drums have almost no offset.
(http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/img/RAY/Drums/87251.jpg)-----(http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/img/RAY/Drums/87038.jpg)
This suggests that the housing -to-axle dimension changed.
I put on a late model drum when Advance Auto accidentally gave me one while changing drums on my '85 (narrow width). It left a significant amount of drum shoe showing.
On edit:I reckon the backing plate could have changed.
I think getting some 8.8 TC specific length axles minus the disc brake hardware on the axle would work. Im going to call Moser up to see what length they have specified for TC axles compared to the 56in measured.
I called up moser and the guy was pretty familiar with the difference between disc brake and drum difference in axle lengths. He said it would be roughly 1/2in difference, which is what I expected. But in order to get the right axles made, he needs both 7.5 and 8.8 axle lengths as well as both rear end housing-housing lengths. Ive got one source here that both 7.5 and 8.8 axles are the same length, any more sources? He claims the axles are 29 3/16in long. I need to get some exact specs on rear end lengths now. Keep ya'll posted.
Ronnie why not go ahead and get the stock Mustang length axles???? Will give you a little more tire to fender clearance....
Id love to Tom but it would hurt my feelings if I got them and theyre too short. But they would be cheaper since they are not custom made. You think the 8.8 Mustang and TC rearends are the same lengths? It does make sense in order for the TC to accomodate the disc brakes. I believe Joe(bondocougar) has some mustang axles on order, Im eager to hear how they work. Later
Ronnie
Have you read my post?
Yes, I have read all your posts on this subject, and from what I can tell everyone seems to disagree. Its hilarious, you ask a question and someone replies "yeah sure" without any sort of evidence other than hear say.
I read your above post concerning drums etc. However, my question is very simple:
What length axles will work with a TC 8.8 with 9in drum brakes? Now guys on the corral say that the TC rearend is the same length as a Fox stang rearend. This would mean that fox stang axles would work. Now Im not getting my info from someone's text book, its coming from real world experience, which would tend to dominate theoretical values. Sometimes, they way things should be is not the same as the way they truely are.
The only reason I say all the rears are the same is from corral.net/corner-carver.com searches and Kirschenbaum. I hope the threads I linked to you over on the Corral put your mind at ease.
Sorry for my ignorance, but Im trying to clear this up for everyone...
From what I understand the 8.8 mustang rear, 7.5 mustang rear, 8.8 turbo coupe rear, and lincoln lsc rears are all the same width. BUT the tbird 7.5 rear is not on that list. The mustang 8.8 and tc 8.8 are identical in width, but the axles on the TC are longer due to disc brakes. Since the tbird 7.5 does not have disc brakes, it still needs to be the same overall width as the TC rear, but the rearend itself is wider to compensate for no disc brakes. Therefore 7.5 rearend axles will not work in a 8.8TC rear properly without mods. So I think the best alternative is to use 8.8mustang axles in a TC 8.8 if one wants to retain drum brakes. Agree?
I think you got it exactly. Mustang axles go right in. If you are staying with the 28 spline than pick up a couple of used axles at the yard. This way if for some reason you theory does not work you are not out much. In fact you could just pick up one to try for now. If you are going with the 31 spline than I used Superior axles.
Very good information, sorry you had to go through all this.
TED
so theres no way to convert to 5 lugs with a 7.5 rear in a tbird with out changing axle size
Yes there is...use 94+ Mustang axles.....same length as those in the Tbird..... I converted the 7.5 in the 84 XR-7 with axles from a 95 Mustang.......
But chuck, weren't the T-bird/Cougar 7.5 rears the same dimensions as the Mustangs up until mid-year of 1985? That guy is talking about his 87 T-bird. The 94 and up axles worked in your 7.5 because it's of the early years; I don't thing this kid will have the same luck.
Joe
will it work or not
or what other shafts can i use from what other models of car
....*sigh*
Now this thread makes baby Jesus vomit.
You know, I never measured the ed thing.... :sorry: I took an 84 Cougar XR-7 7.5 rear axle housing, stuck 95 Mustang axles in it and am running the TC rear disks.....did not have to use any spacers or voodoo.
It did have the taller hat drums on it though.
I do have to admit all my cars have been 83-85....so I have no firsthand experience with the 87-88 cars when it comes to the rear axles.
I suppose he could just pick up a used 7.5 Mustang housing cheap and be done with it....
but no one knows which axles shaft you can swap wright in to make this so much easier
gotta remember, not every swap is a direct, easy swap
As already stated, since you have Mustang length axles the best choice would be get a '93 earlier Stang or the '87-'88 Turbo Coupe housing(would be my choice) . Or if you can return the axles order ones specifically for a '87-'88 Bird with drum brakes.(Probably $$$)
:laughing::laughing:
mine was :D :flip:
Regarding the original parts of this post on fitting a 7.5" drum axle from an 88 Cougar LS with 10" drums onto a TurboCoup 8.8" with disk brakes in order to keep the drum brakes:
I tried it with axles from a fox Mustang, and as lots above have suggested, it looks like it works!! :rollin:
(http://mysite.verizon.net/junkyardjoe/drumon.jpg)
Thanks all you geniuses!
Sweet, I hope this information is recorded, even put into a sticky??
Congrats!
has any 1 ever took shafts from a ranger or ford arostar and checked if it worked because my stock 4 lug shafts are 29-1/2 in long from the lug base and the other shaft are likean inch shorter what i need is something from like a ranger with the 7.5 rear end
Mother of Pearl! (http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/shock.gif)
Have everything installed on the car now and the test drive was noisy!.. Sounded like rubber rubbing on something. Note I had the rear looked over at a shop when it was off the car, they replaced only the seals, said everything else is fine.
Looking at the car you can see the back tires sit further into the wheel well (due to the reduced length) . So the back tires are closer together (measuring rim-to-rim), compared with the front tires. Thats probably not a good thing. :disappoin
Whats the fix for this? Maybe different drums that JeremyB mentioned? I would need drums that are thicker, although not thick enough that the tire studs won't mate with the lug nuts.
Huh...so you used axles from a 1995 and they worked? I have a set sitting here along with a new set, but the diameter of the hub seems to be different. The 94 axle has a 2.75" hub, whereas the 93 hub measures only 2.52". Is my new axle made incorrect, or are you sure you used an axle from a 95?
Positive...
I did forget that I wound up opening up the center bore on the rotor to accomidate the larger 5-lug hub diameter. I chose to do that instead of turning the hub down to match the rotor as I plan on upgrading to some SN-95 binders in the future, and I also wanted to keep the wheels hubcentric.
But yes, they were exactly the same length as the axles I pulled from my 84 Tbird housing.
this is the same thing i had to do to my 86 turbo coupe. i wish i know this before i swaped the 7.5 for the 8.8. :sawzall:
You every get this rear end in the car and sorted out?
Its probs like this is why i had my 8.8 built with axles spool and c clip elims.
Do once do it right and forget it.
Yup, its installed, probably about 300 miles on it now.
Only remaining issue is the wheels are sunken into the wheel well by about an inch or inch and a half. Have to get some wheels with different offsets or some spacers to make it look better, something left to do for another time.
I have done this exact swap, and ran into the exact problem. OK what I did.
1: cut the bracket off of the rearend for the disk brakes with a dremel or sawzall. it hits the backing plate.
2: put the 10 drum backing plate from the cougar on the axle .
(OK) think about what lug pattern you want now (to save you money in the long run), the next step will decide.
3: hit the junkyard and buy either a set of 79-93 8.8 or 7.5 (they are the same axle) fox mustang axles and use your existing brake drums and viola you are done. or buy 2 drivers side ranger/ aerostar axles from the same junkyard. they are the same length that you need, DO NOT use the passanger side as it is longer and will not fit. then buy the rear drums from a ranger or aerostar with the 10" drum brake option, they are not that uncommon and you will be done.
What about using axles & brakes from an '84 T-bird? The axles are the same length as the '88 T-bird axles, but the wheel bearing surface is about 3/4" closer to the inner end, to match the bearing placement on the Mustang-length housing. The drums are offset a similar amount to compensate for the brake shoes being closer to the center.
This places the wheel s at the standard T-bird position in the wheel well. It does require the use of the 9" brakes, but mine ('88 T-bird with early '85 TC rear) seem to work about as well as the 10" ones did.
Went through the same problem when i swapped to a tc 8.8 and tried to keep the drums from the 7.5.I just cut the bracket off and used axles out of an 84 fairmont/ltd 7.5.No problems.
Wow, this is truely a dead horse, I did this exact swap in 2000 when no one knew. I used the u-pull-it Jyard as a tool, they are not too common unless you are in San Diego or LA. SO here is what I know. The 7.5 used in the T-bird/ Cougar is 1" wider than the conventional 8.8/7.5 from the fox body. I imagine it was due to a reason like tire width or placement for NASCAR (the cougar/bird is 1" wider front track too, this helps ride stability through turns, the rear is most likely 1" wider due to the front being 1" wider), but the MK VII used a different style all together (swaybar mounting and brake mounting /operation differences). Switching to an 8.8 from a Turbo Coupe is simple, just use mustang/ fairmont/ capri/ LTD axles to have the rearend fit together. Use the T-Bird backing plates and the large drums from the bird. If you want 5 lug use the passanger side axle for a aerostar and the drums from the aerostar, some equiped with larger drums to fit the bird backing plates. the 84-85 t-bird 7.5 is the same exact length as the 87-88 t-bird rearend (non TC) there are really only 2 axle lengths for midsize/pony cars (Long - Tbird/Cougar and Short -Everything else) Do not attempt to use Mk VII stuff cause it is too different, if there is no option measure the parts before pulling them and trying to use them and post the information on the board.
well, heres my question, if it turns out the housings are the same as a mustang, why not just swap it for that instead of going through all this troule mixing and matching. not only that, i think its a given that there are many more mustang axles out there than turbo coupes.
yeah to follow up on my last post here, another guy at work had a spare stang axle assembly and i just swaped it out today. its jsut the same as others have said, a little narrower, but it was jsut cheaper to do it this way i think. plus, i noticed someone said you couldnt mount the 10" drums on the 8.8 housing, but you can cause i just kept them when i did it today. i guess if you want discs though, but i figured id let everybody know what i was able to accomplish, maybe put down some rumors.
Digging up an old thread but it has some great info. Now my other dilema.. 85 Turbocoupe. It has an 8.8 in I think from backing plate to backing plate it measures 53.5 inches. The same width as the one from my 92 LX Mustang. The axles are definately longer than the Mustang. (been said a dozen times) When I bought axles from Moser I gave Greg the measurements of the axle that came out of the T-Bird. He said these are the same size as an SN95. I got them but in the 4 lug version. Later I swaped to 5 lug axles so the 4 lug was no longer needed. (anyone need em?) When I put SN 95 (5lug) replacements in the 8.8 I couldn't find a 5 lug drum for my 9.080 drum brakes. So to make due I used the ones from I think a Ranger truck. Yes, the drums were too shallow but I was able to go racing. Now while I have the engine apart I want to install disk brakes so I can spool the turbo on foot brake. What parts can I use to keep the same back spacing and run disk brakes. The back spacing is critical to me cause I run 15X10 Prostars w/ a 26X10 ET Street and 295-50's for street tires. Fits beautifully. I have been reading the forums for the last couple of hours doing searches and my head hurts...(yeah I know...wwaaaahhh) Anyway thanks for reading guys, great forum w/ a ton of info.
Uncleford
SN-95 rear disks....
So beating a dead horse.. find an sn95 donor (v-6/v8) and get what off of it? Complete rear or just the brake parts? What about brake booster, MC and prop valve. (Chuck I think it would be easier for me to just call you. You seem to be answering all my posts) Thanks...
If you already have 5-lug SN-95 axles in your housing, then you just need all the brake stuff from any SN-95 Mustang (V6 and GT are the same). Rotors, calipers, brackets, hoses, lines.
What are you doing for the fronts?
You can probably get by just fine with an adjustable prop valve and a MC from a Lincoln Mk6 (1980). It as a 1" bore and is the same style as what's on the car now. You could always swap to a later SN-95 MC/booster, but you will need to convert lines and such as the fittings are different.
Jegs has an adjustable prop valve for around 50 bucks. I have one on my car and it does the job. I have an 8.8 with lincoln rotors. I used the original mc from my 84 5.0. Just saying to ease worry if you choose not to change the m/c.
Ok, I'm pulling this up, again, even though I already have a Mark VII rear setup (mark vii axels and brakes in my TC rear). I like the added width I got with this setup, but I'm pretty much maxed out on the outside lip of my wheel/tires and I'm thinking about stepping up from 17x9's to 18x10's (gaining 2mm on the outside) and need to go back to a more narrow rear...
So, my question is for you, Chuck:
With SN axels, plates, brackets, rotors and calipers in my stock TC housing, would I be back to the stock 88 TC rear track width?
awesome! Thanks
now ive read through this thread, and i need some clarification indeed stang axles are 3/4 shorter. that means the axels are about high 28"?
help me out im in need of axle scoolin.
You should have looked in one of the other sticky threads on the subject.
Jeremy B's chart listed in the post below has all the info you need...
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=138359&postcount=12
I saw that but my computer wont open it. its lame like that
Bingo bango...
I just have to say, that chart and it's contents are beautiful!
Just an idea.
What about swapping the tubes?
No bracket or length problems.
Ask around, someone where you live should be able to swap the tubes and maybe even square them up and weld them in place...
I have acquired an 8.8 differential with a powertrax posi unit. My issue comes from the fact that the axles are 5 lug and am using 4 lug rims which I do not want to replace just yet.
Or how about just picking up a set of axles from an 83-85 TBird/Cougar, or from an 87-88TC?
What is your 8.8 out of?
Good looking chart! Would it be possible to update it with axle spline count unless they are all 28's and are Mark VII 7.5" ring gears?
So does anyone know the width of the housing in an 84'-92' Mark VII? Im going from a Fox Mustang 8.8 drum rear to Mark VII axles, rotors, calipers, ect. Im looking for the 5 Lug vented rotor and the extra width. Just want to make sure its going to be a bit wider then an 87'-88' Turbo Coupe rear end.
When or if it ever quits raining :mad: ,I can go out and measure it for ya.I have a 90 model linc mk 7 with disc brakes.I did a quick measure last night and went from outside to outside of the s and got 54 inches.the 88 cougar xr7 rear end is 56 in ches from to .both are 8.8s and both are disc brakes.I used the 94 mustang axle and it has 2in of splines and the linc has 1 1/2 splines.the linc axle is 30-1/2 and the mustang (sn95-94 and up)is 30 inches.I slid both in the 54 in housing from the linc and the both went in fine.I didnt get any farther(Rain).I will get some pics tomorrow(I hope-I swear were in seattle ,wa).I am doing the same set up the way it sounds as you but,I am putting mine in a malibu.i hope that some of this helps.I am doing a write up on maliburacing.com about 8.8 backyard build up with pics.you can go on there and check it out.kenny
I put an 8.8 under my bird from a 91 lx with 2.73 trac lok and i ordered 1 1/4 wheel spacers from ezaccesories.com for like 84 bucks shipped. the only problem is they come with 12mm studs and lugs. And the only problem i ran into with the rear was the fact i have air shocks the kicker shocks would have came into contact with them. Also if you go the mustang route get the brackets to bolt the kicker shocks on from the doner car. your gonna need them and there bolts for the frame( some special bolts). Unless your not worried about the kickers like i wasnt. and it only took me about an 1 1/2 to swap rears and get her back on the road. Just what ever you do dont weld the diff in the 7.5 and try driving on the street i did and nothing but bad things happened=] but any other questions let me know
the marks rear is an inch wider on each side then a 7.5 hope that helps a lil
To add to the chart, my 1989 mark vii housing width measures 54" via tape measure, so I assume it is the same as the others of the same era-54.096. It appears that the only difference is the axles.