Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: jcassity on June 30, 2006, 01:24:01 AM
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2006, 01:24:01 AM
Engine bay empty and the 3.8 stroker plans have gone down hill.
I am going to put in my 306 and i think i have all my parts gathered up.
I can post up engine specs or just read the first entry on "3.8 stroker in process"
Question Any advice on motor mounts for an E0 engine block casting number????. The mounts i have now on the block have the bolt at a 45deg where it would pass thru an oval hole in the frame like you see onlate 80's or early 90's bronco's.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on June 30, 2006, 01:48:23 AM
hmm, Why not just buy all new motor mounts? or get a new k- member so that you can throw in mustang mounts.
What are the specs for the engine.
I would much rather see a 4.2 all played out, but oh well.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on June 30, 2006, 01:57:16 AM
you can use the factory mounts if im not mistaken they will bolt to the block, and transmission has the same bolt pattern.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2006, 02:00:17 AM
I not really savy on all the body parts and interchangeable parts like some are. All my coug chassis parts are oem except for the basics and the rack.
as far as the specs,, its pretty special,,,,ill copy past the specs i guess.,
basically im gonna convert this Duraspark II carb'd system to batch fire EEC IV.
I have inherited a motor i built for a buddy of mine d0 casting 302 block c6 289 heads studed heads 1.6 something inch stainless intake valves 1.9 something inch stainless exhaust valves 1.6 roller rockers cam lift is .496intake and .520exhaust cam duration is 290intake and 300exhaust forged 40 over pistons decked block shaved heads @ .020 high volume oil pump high volume fuel pump some sort of bad ass springs, not sure what brand 600 something eldebrock carb (use to have a holly 750 double pumper) ,,,going to invent a cfi concept chrome summit add ons and air cleaner/valve covers high end head gaskets from what i remember pos duraspark but oh well new gear set and chain found the stroker kit for it hope i can figure out a way to put injectors on the intake later down the line converting to batch fire CFI D2 aluminum mustang intake for 2bbl purchased for 20bux today (replaces the high rise carb'd intake) shopping for a DIS for it I want to get the transmission shop to take my spare aod and make it a standard automatic.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2006, 02:02:34 AM
Quote from: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87
you can use the factory mounts if im not mistaken they will bolt to the block, and transmission has the same bolt pattern.
not on this block.,, the mounts bolt to engine in a vertical situation. My 3.8 mounts bolt to the block at a 45 deg situation.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarCoupe88 on June 30, 2006, 02:39:05 AM
i belive any bird or cats 5.0 mounts will work. but chuck made some realy nice looking mounts talk to him
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on June 30, 2006, 04:38:25 PM
Quote
cam lift is .496intake and .520exhaust cam duration is 290intake and 300exhaust[/QUOTE
lol thats my old flat tappit cams specs what brand cam are those specs from mine was a blue reacer..
Nick
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on June 30, 2006, 06:07:12 PM
Um, I got one word... ChuckW (motor mounts)
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 01, 2006, 12:08:30 AM
You need the upper brackets that bolts to the block and the 5.0 insulators, lower bracket should be the same(at least it is on the 2.3 and 5.0). ONLY '86-'88 5.0 Birds/Cougs used this type mounts... All 289/302/5.0/351W use the same spaced bolt holes in the block, the 221 and early 260 used a narrower spacing between the bolts, I believe the late 260 was same as later engines ...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on July 01, 2006, 12:15:11 AM
Hey Tom, I have a little bit more uselfull 3.8 info... the bases on 3.8 cars are different than the 5.0's.. they shift the isolator to one side more than the 5.0
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on July 01, 2006, 02:41:21 AM
What you want to do is either get chucks motor mounts(obviously) or swap out to a 85-83 cougar/tbird or 79-93? mustang kmember and use mustang motor mounts. That way when stuff breaks you can buy new ones.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 01, 2006, 08:46:43 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
Quote
cam lift is .496intake and .520exhaust cam duration is 290intake and 300exhaust[/QUOTE
lol thats my old flat tappit cams specs what brand cam are those specs from mine was a blue reacer..
Nick
I remember the box had the word "BLUE" in is and i think your right, blue racer was the brand. It was a company that got purchased by crane cams i think several years ago. Its a pretty old cam but has hardly no miles on it. Wolverine blue racer i think.
As for the motor mounts,,, im coming off the block with a piece of flat steel and landing directly on top of the existing mount. The mounts will be done today,, hopefully the engine in and running as well.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 01, 2006, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
Hey Tom, I have a little bit more uselfull 3.8 info... the bases on 3.8 cars are different than the 5.0's.. they shift the isolator to one side more than the 5.0
Thanks Claude, I remember there were four mounting holes in the 2.3/5.0 lowers and they each used different holes, but brackets were same... I have the 2.3 lowers in mine as the mounts were bad(as in a long long time) in the 5.0 parts car and the lower brackets were so beat up I didn't want to use them...
Even the large right side '87-'88 2.3 insulater is the same as 5.0 as I swapped one into the left side on a '86 5.0 Bird with no issue... I suspect the left(smaller in diameter) TC insulator can swap as well. I gave the only one I had to the son-in-law for the daughters old TC...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 02, 2006, 12:58:46 AM
well, apparently ive overlooked something simple. the mounts are going well, got distracted with other things. It seems now that its a holiday weekend, i wont be able to hit the jy and find a shallower oil pan. the one i have reminds you of a 5 gallon bucket:rollin:
Ill have to figure out a work around on this one , hopefully one of my buddies has a pan. Going shallower bothers me casue my when it was running, the hight volume oil pump would like to drop from about 120 psi to around 60 or so if you gun it going at high speed,,,,guess ibetter keep my foot out of it.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 02, 2006, 11:03:26 AM
Guys,, are these the motor mount block brakets you all are talking about?
johns331 pic,,,,,,,, been researching cardomain sites.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarCoupe88 on July 02, 2006, 12:59:12 PM
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: 32VFoxBird on July 02, 2006, 06:59:02 PM
those are BIG exhaust valves!
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on July 02, 2006, 08:48:50 PM
I dont know what you need honestly, But I am sure chucks would fix them. I think those are the half that bolt to the block. Another half bolts to the k-member.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 03, 2006, 01:40:27 AM
i think tom answered my question,, i may need to locate the upper bracket that mounts to the engine. Im coming off the block with a piece of 1/2 flat steel and landing on my mount.
This works out great with my big ass oil pan , i think ill have 5/8'' clearance. It works against me with my 82 mustang high rise intake and what i have on top of it. Motor may be stitting too high by an inch.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 03, 2006, 03:22:18 AM
Quote from: jcassity
Guys,, are these the motor mount block brakets you all are talking about?
johns331 pic,,,,,,,, been researching cardomain sites.
Yup... 'dats 'dem
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 03, 2006, 01:39:17 PM
Tom,, are those brackets with your mounts you have?
if not,, can anyone tell me the offset the upper has from the block to the mount. It looks like no more than an inch to me.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 03, 2006, 11:20:59 PM
Yup I have the complete set... I measure approx 7/8" drop
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2006, 11:53:22 PM
update,,,,,,,,,hope to have pics soon,,,,,,,,sorry
pls see page one for my setup so you can underand my questions.
now, for you motorheads out there, i got some tech stuff i need help with so i make the correct selection in material based on what i am doing.
as i mentioned, i removed the highrise 4bbl intake/carb in trade for an older Aluminum 2bbl high rise with the following casting number,, RF-E2ZE-9425-CA. Apparently this was for a mustang with an EEC controled carb. The EGR plate is made into the intake and of course thats gonna get blocked off. **One thing i found on this intake that pissed me off was the mounting surface of a carb or CFI. The surface is not level. Its lower in the front half,, im like,,wtf!!!. I wont ever be able to sit a super charger one day unless i get it level so my drive pully isnt pen 15eyed. The SC will hopefully come later on but that will take some doing.
#1 ENOUGH AIR? The intake measures up to be approx 42mm (@ 1.7'') per bank so is 84mm worth of intake air good enough for my 2bbl setup?
#2 Which Injectors? Since my 5.0 CFI did not measure up to my liking on air flow:giggle: , i decided to break the CFI in half and only use the upper half. I am mounting the trottle linkage / approx 43mm butterfies right in the intake. This lowers the profile of my intake and thats what i was after. Since i have 42mmx2 worth of bore on my intake compared to the size of my intake valves,, what injectors should i use? I have at my disposal several.. E0SE-A2A injectors, 46#/hr. (blue) E3VE-A1A injectors, 37#/hr. (green) F65E-A4a--(Gray)-- i do not know what specs these are but came on a 4.2L _help on these ,specs and such. I feel i might be best off with TC 56# or 64# (blue or green) inectors. I can only have two injectors so which type based on my setup?
4 DIZZY I got my dizzy for 20bux from a mid 80's towncar,, my stock EEC should work with this dizzy , correct? The 87 EEC pin outs for the v6 and the V8 with reguard to the TFI are the same from what i can see.
5 Intake Am i correct on the origination of this intake? RF-E2ZE-9425-CA?
As for headers,, i got a farily new set for 20bux (mustang shorties) and i cant really see what all the hoopla is about them. As far as i can tell, they are gonna restrict my airflow since my ports are a lil larger with the 289 heads. Its more like the headers are gonna give me some back presure more than anything,,,BUT,,,, atleast there is plenty of room for bolts!!! which i like compared to headman.
BTW,,as for my sped 4.2 project, the 4.2L had a stock 64mm trottle body if that means anything to anyone.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2006, 03:02:40 AM
As for the dizzy, It depends on what year it is. When the 5.0's got roller rockers they got a diffrent cam too. I think the gears are the same, but I dont have anything pre 86 5.0's so I cant tell you for sure. If it was an 86 up, I would dare say that yes it will work.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on July 06, 2006, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: Haystack
As for the dizzy, It depends on what year it is. When the 5.0's got roller rockers they got a diffrent cam too. I think the gears are the same, but I dont have anything pre 86 5.0's so I cant tell you for sure. If it was an 86 up, I would dare say that yes it will work.
5.0's didn't get roller rockers, they got roller lifters..
The cam gear for the distributor is different between the flat tappet cam and the roller cam.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 06, 2006, 05:23:23 PM
i see you have meny questions
and i have questions for you too
check your P/M's
Nick
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on July 08, 2006, 07:27:11 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
5.0's didn't get roller rockers, they got roller lifters..
The cam gear for the distributor is different between the flat tappet cam and the roller cam.
oops, that is what I ment. Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on July 08, 2006, 10:18:14 AM
Scott I have an idea for you.... why dont you convert to EFI, but do it out of the mainstream....
Trucks use an ecu that is batch fire.. two injector drivers... your harness now is setup for two injector drivers. You could simply snip the injector harness out of a truck and wire it to the injector harness on your car. might be a few pins to change here and there... but I think it would be a cool thing to try ,,,, and it would work much better than the cfi setup.
Just use a truck ecu.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2006, 01:15:29 PM
i have considered a couple things and i am going to port out the 82HO intake. The runners are sufficient enough for me as i dont wanna experiment around with my otherone with the carb on it.
as you can see, i plan on using only the upper half of the cfi since it already has all the adaptable / funcional parts on it so its only a matter of making a little figure 8 shaped gasket.
i have to tweek around with some butterly sizes and whatnot but thats gonna happen here in a few. the only downer i can see is that im not going with the much much larger intake.
A couple pics illustrate my need to do some fat removal on the intake ports to help them come closer to my 1'' x 1.940 head intake ports. I will approch those deminsions on my HO intake but not match perfectly. My HO runners get very wide rather quickly as i feel up in the intake and looking at them fromt the top. I will focus on the horizontal portions of the ports first then tweek either vertical side to gain air flow.
I still dont know which injectors to use.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2006, 01:21:31 PM
more pics of the project
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2006, 01:26:41 PM
intake ports needing some fatback removed.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 08, 2006, 11:29:48 PM
from what i see in those pictures
i see just what i told you..the ports are way to small..
and from what i see in the picture i don't see where it can be a total of 84mm.. here are the pictures of my intake.. the size of the hole for my throttle body is 3" which = 76mm and i'm useing a 75mm throttle body.. (http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/278000-278999/278001_47_full.jpg)
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 08, 2006, 11:45:19 PM
I like that intake btw,, could do some neat things with it.
as for my intake,, wow,,, what a difference. it seemed like i could go on forever milling out the rails and opening it up but there is that point where finally reach the goal and i was able to match up the head good enough.
here is a pic after i milled at this intake,, took about a half hour per port, 6 beers and a half pack of smokes. Im happy with it so far,, almost ditched this intake but i looks good now.
the intake in the background with the carb was my goal for port size and the intake below is my result.
If you scroll up, you can see a before pic of my intake,, drastic difference. I guess she's not so tight anymore : )
question,,, How would you go about cleaning out the tank in the center?,, i see a factory drilled hole and its full of .
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 09, 2006, 12:00:34 AM
ok looks bigger but still to small and i knew i was right i figured it could'nt be bigger then 45mm.. anyway call me.. NOW! lol or do you want me to call you
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2006, 12:20:35 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
and from what i see in the picture i don't see where it can be a total of 84mm.. here are the pictures of my intake.. the size of the hole for my throttle body is 3" which = 76mm and i'm useing a 75mm throttle body..
well,, this rule had never told a lie before,, theupper scale is mm,, and if you pardon my flash on the camera,, out of 8 tries , this was the best i could do. you see the last increment as a "4" and a couple mm after that.
You use to own one of these,, a two bbl, should be familar if you think back.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 09, 2006, 12:26:00 AM
you edited your post lol i'm still waiting for my phone to ring;)
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2006, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
ok looks bigger but still to small and i knew i was right i figured it could'nt be bigger then 45mm.. anyway call me.. NOW! lol or do you want me to call you
ill try you tomorrow,, i gotta get a move on with this project and i still have to bore out the throttle holes and sleeve them so my butterflies seal due to these jackass egr ports you see in there.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 09, 2006, 12:32:23 AM
fine:( :whatever: :raspberry :drink: ;)
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2006, 12:39:08 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
Scott I have an idea for you.... why dont you convert to EFI, but do it out of the mainstream....
Trucks use an ecu that is batch fire.. two injector drivers... your harness now is setup for two injector drivers. You could simply snip the injector harness out of a truck and wire it to the injector harness on your car. might be a few pins to change here and there... but I think it would be a cool thing to try ,,,, and it would work much better than the cfi setup.
Just use a truck ecu.
I think you missed something,,, i am going to be EFI,, just not the the normal way of going about it,,,,,,,,,if it works.
sorry i missed your post,, i cant change plans again, although i will eventually have injector bungs and if my eec wont accept the impedance of 4 injectors firing at once,, then of course this is an option.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2006, 01:33:54 AM
does anyone have any TC injectors?
and....
how would you clean out the center tank on the bottom of the intake?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on July 09, 2006, 02:02:11 AM
Quote from: jcassity
I think you missed something
I think I did...
Buuut.. go to autozone and buy a cheap single plane manifold they have on the shelf.. should be a hair bit better for the setup.. per nick.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2006, 02:24:58 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
I think I did...
Buuut.. go to autozone and buy a cheap single plane manifold they have on the shelf.. should be a hair bit better for the setup.. per nick.
:rollin: for the hair of better performance, ill save my money ill need to purchase an AOD and rear im about to blow:rollin:
god i hop not.
btw, anything better is gonna end up sitting higher,, and since my 5 gallon bucket oil pan forces me to do home grown upper mounts to clear the rack by 5/8'',, i have to watch my hood closes. I dont want the cowl hood stuff, not my style. I have to watch what i do and i like having the larger oil pan already based on the oil pump i have. I dont wanna break the seal on the lower end anyway.
besides,, why go get another intake? im just gonna end up drilling and mounting trottle plates in that one to:evilgrin:
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 11, 2006, 01:21:43 AM
Today i got past another challenge. I sealed off the EGR/Vac ports down in the intake where my trottle plates will reside. You can see on the previous page that i have a pic of my intake with a ruler on it. That big square hole down inside is one of 4 i sealed off. I made my butterflies but they still need some minor tweeking , i have to use a glow stick laying down in the intake to check for my seal. Sized up and reflaired my existing Y pipe on the exhaust so i can use it until i get the materials to do duals. All i need is two sticks of emt conduit , bend it and install. Im still eyeballing the path down the driver side. If anyone has a pic on the driver side,, leme see what you did so i can see what works.
Tomorrow i will convert this two chamber intake into a single chamber so to make everyone happy on how much air i can get in. Ill bore out the intake ports horizontally just below where the butterflies close and make more air that way. This will mean that i will have approx 84mm worth of input air to the entire engine. Sound good anyone?
To follow will be my completed modified CFI system.
I still have the task of deciding which injector reacts the best.
My next challenge is to get my V6 serpentine pully to mate up on this exising harmonic. My V8 harmonic has a vbelt pully but the mounting holes are further apart. I may get away with my v6 pully if i line things up right and ream out the holes outward. Im not off by much so ill depend on a good eye and getting all of them equal.
Can anyone tell me what the diameter of the 5.0 serpentine pully is? i need to know if my v6 pully is equal.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 12, 2006, 01:10:35 AM
got a little done today, the jbweld i used to fill the EGR and Vac ports inside the throttle bores took more time than i thought for curing so i could hone and get back on the design.
I have a butterfly installed so you guys can see what it will look like from the injectors point of view.
just below the butterflies is where i bored out a large hole to increase air flow across both banks of the engine while its running. Now it is basically a single chamber but not exactly. Before the intake would only allow 42mm worth of air to reach each bank of the engine where as now, when the trottle is open, both butterflies allow air flow to either bank at the same time. I could not get it any bigger or i would have tried to match up to as close to 44mm as possible. anything i did here helps and as it is, the size is very large. NICK- does this help with the air issue?
the butterflies are complicated to hand make but easy if you start off with a plan. I know that the angle of the butterfly in the pic is still not perfect. I need to achieve an angle that duplicates what was on the CFI before for TPS position reasons. I need to finish up and file the butterflies until i have a difference of just 5mm height from front to rear on the butterflies. This will give me some sort of angle in degrees but i dont really care,, as long as there is 5mm worth of difference between the depth on the front compared to the rear, im in like flynn.
The last run this engine made was up on a pipe line where it broke an 89 bronco rear axle and then decided to break a front axle and configure it into an "S" shape some how. That was with a 355 rear end also. The only difference i am doing to the motor is to swap in this lower profile intake/homemade CFI instead of the holly. Prior to my building this motor a couple years ago, the heads were sitting on a 302 running drag. The original owner decided to go with 351w heads and regrets it now and wants these back. Im not rebuilding anything here guys,,ive already done that part, just doing a simple swap with some of me put into it. I prefer my older EEC for its keen ability to become extreemly dumb and only needing the TPS and injectors plugged up along with the dizzy in order to make an engine run. I wont need any of the other stuff hooked up so thats all coming out and making room for a cleaner look.
I dont expect huge horsepower but i wont be dissappointed if its only 250 but i expect 300.
*********** Questions DIZZY? Has anyone tried to use a V8 dizzy with a v6 1987 and down EEC? it should work from what i see on the diagrams.
Fuel delivery? What is the rule of fhumb on fuel delivery,, ie-19lb injectors on sefi rounds up to 20 so,,,20x8=160 lbs? On my CFI setup, should i look to atleast 60 or 70 pound injectors?
TC Injectors? Does anyone have any 4 cyl injectors for sale? they are like 60 some odd pounds each. I know the impedance is lower but i can take care of that with an 8watt inline resistor along the EEC leg if i get picky and up the resistance to along the lines of the green or blue tops.
Vacuume Presure? The issue of vac presure was brought up due to the huge cam. The engine made enough vac to stop a full size bronco with power brakes, is there something else im missing?
Harmonic balancer pully? Can someone tell me the diameter of the 5.0 serpentine pully?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 12, 2006, 08:30:51 PM
Quote from: jcassity
NICK- does this help with the air issue?
NOPE:raspberry
some how i'll figure out away to get you to stop screwing around with that lame! chezzy! ugly! good for nothing! smog! bottle neck! like trying to $hit a bowling ball! boat anchor!flushing 10 gallons of $hit threw a one inch pipe!tire chock!paper weight!ASH TRAY! s metal!weed grower!drops dead at 4000RPM! never going to make 300 horse power! 155 horsepower 2 barrel intake manifold!:yuck: :D;) did i miss anything?:sorry: ;)
Nick
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: 32VFoxBird on July 13, 2006, 12:41:49 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
NOPE:raspberry
some how i'll figure out away to get you to stop screwing around with that lame! chezzy! ugly! good for nothing! smog! bottle neck! like trying to $hit a bowling ball! boat anchor!flushing 10 gallons of $hit threw a one inch pipe!tire chock!paper weight!ASH TRAY! s metal!weed grower!drops dead at 4000RPM! never going to make 300 horse power! 155 horsepower 2 barrel intake manifold!:yuck: :D;) did i miss anything?:sorry: ;)
Nick
werd!
too much trouble.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 13, 2006, 01:05:57 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
NOPE:raspberry
some how i'll figure out away to get you to stop screwing around with that lame! chezzy! ugly! good for nothing! smog! bottle neck! like trying to $hit a bowling ball! boat anchor!flushing 10 gallons of $hit threw a one inch pipe!tire chock!paper weight!ASH TRAY! s metal!weed grower!drops dead at 4000RPM! never going to make 300 horse power! 155 horsepower 2 barrel intake manifold!:yuck: :D;) did i miss anything?:sorry: ;)
Nick
:flip: krickets,,, do i hear krickets:D
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 13, 2006, 01:20:48 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar
NOPE:raspberry
some how i'll figure out away to get NICK to stop screwing around with ME OFFERING HIS lame! chezzy! ugly! good for nothing! smog!BREATH bottle neck!OPINIONS.
HE'Slike trying toCHEW ON HISbowling ballS!ANDAND HIS wee little boat anchor!SPEWING 10 gallons of $hit FROM HIS MECHANCIALLY CHALLENGED MIND. HEthrew a one inch pipe!tire chock!paper weight!ON TOP OF HIS RICE BURNER WHILE HE FILLS HISASH TRAY! HISs metal!weed grower!drops dead at 4000RPM! never going to make 300 horse power! 155 horsepower ELBOW AND INTAKE SITTIN ON THE DINNING ROOM TABLE intake manifold!:yuck: :D;) did i miss anything?:sorry: ;)NOT
[COLOR="Red"]DICK[/COLOR]
:D :flip: : back at ya,,,:D
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Blown306Cougar on July 13, 2006, 06:23:09 PM
Quote from: jcassity
Originally Posted by Blown306Cougar NOPE
some how i'll figure out away to get NICK to stop screwing around with ME OFFERING HIS lame! chezzy! ugly! good for nothing! smog!BREATH bottle neck!OPINIONS.
HE'Slike trying toCHEW ON HISbowling ballS!ANDAND HIS wee little boat anchor!SPEWING 10 gallons of $hit FROM HIS MECHANCIALLY CHALLENGED MIND. HEthrew a one inch pipe!tire chock!paper weight!ON TOP OF HIS RICE BURNER WHILE HE FILLS HISASH TRAY! HISs metal!weed grower!drops dead at 4000RPM! never going to make 300 horse power! 155 horsepower ELBOW AND INTAKE SITTIN ON THE DINNING ROOM TABLE intake manifold! did i miss anything? NOT
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 24, 2006, 11:21:38 AM
Im having serious bracket issues here, still trying to find the piece parts to keep this setup serpentine. im on my way out to get some piece parts off a towncar here in a few minutes.
The intake has been done for a few days, I wish i could predict when all the little hold ups will go away and allow me to drop it in.
Title: It's Alive!!!
Post by: jcassity on July 30, 2006, 10:57:36 PM
I have my alt and power steering pump situated and secured with brackets off an early 80's LTD so good to go there.
I cycled my ign switch a few times to prime the fuel system and then cranked , moved the dizzy a little and IT LIVES!!!!!:D
I missed my deadline by a long shot as i still have to dress wiring,add the radiator and bolt on my exhaust ,ect, but finally i got to start her up.
Since i start my new job tomorrow,,,(Overhead Crane service), i wont be on top of this daily so it will be slightly delayed even more.
QUESTION,,,,,,, WHat electric fan has proved to be the best (from what vehicle?)
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on July 31, 2006, 10:01:49 PM
What a mess, still tweeking the harness and deleting unused vac/elec connnections. Im cutting back the wires and tagging them within the wire grommet for future reference.
Engine in and a pic of my motor mounts i had to make. I loose the 7/8'' offset by using flat steel. This may effect my fan so thats one reason why i'm interested in an electric fan.
The mounts worked out well but i discovered something intersting when i had to drill the single hole in the plate to land each mount stud.,,,,,,,, Did you guys know that the the motor mounts are not exactly the same distance from the rear of the engine block? THe pass side is 12 1/2'' from the rear of the engine block while the driver is approx 11 1/2''. Wierd and i noticed it just when i was going to drill both holes exactly the same. Lucky i noticed the offset in the engine craddle when i did or i would have been off on one side.
Zoom in on the water pump pully. The best i could do is use the RIBBED water pump pully from the older LTD. I fillled all the grooves with jb weld to create a smooth surface for the back side of the belt. I also routed my belt kinda odd but the way my alt is setup , it uses a 66'' belt now and takes up all my slack and is fully adjustable with my homemade "L" brackets.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: Haystack on July 31, 2006, 11:27:21 PM
try a tarus elec fan. Or one from a mark 8 and what not.
So? Hows the swap so far? I would at least try to find the right pulley. I am not sure I would trust jb weld. Plus its prolly not balanced very well...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on August 10, 2006, 09:40:31 PM
I have a few things i wanna throw out there and get some help with. The engine runs fine but idle is to nearly stall which i sort of expected but not this bad.
When this motor was sitting infront of a C6 and had a carb, we had no issues with idle or 10deg timing. Now that it sits infront of a c4 , it seems to demand 50deg timing *per the cam secs* without the sprout plugged in in order for it to keep running. If i insert the sprout, the electronic advance stalls it.
Does the C6 converter stall at different R's than a c4?..this is my main question and if so should i search out a stall converter? Im thinking that the torque converter i have is stalling way too early but im confussed cause it did so fine in the bronco a couple years ago.
i am running two 46lb injectors and it seems the engine like the fuel presure at 40 or so like normal.
inserting a minor vac leak helps things a little but i should not have to do that.
i purchased a linc dizzy for it and suspected the pick up was causing the trouble and destroyed the shaft while pressing the gear off. Anyway, the pick up must have been ok cause i have the same results. I have driven the car around and have no issues with brakes as far as vac goes. i just have trouble keeping it running and playing the "throw it in N and tap the gas" game when i come to a stop. Its not street friendly yet but i hope to get it that way soon, afterall, it was fine sittign infront of a c6 so i cant figure out what to do next.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 11, 2006, 05:51:57 PM
Advancing the timing will increase the vacuum, what cam is in the engine??? A performance cam will not be EFI friendly. Time to check the vacuum on this puppy.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on August 12, 2006, 01:37:04 PM
cam lift is .496intake and .520exhaust blue racer. I will go out now and pull the vacuum presure and see what it is.
My primary question is the comparrison of how good the engine ran sitting in front of a c6 with a carb/duraspark dizzy. Now it sits in front of a c4 with eeciv system.
I am only running a tps/tfi dizzy/ injectors just like it was with my V6 which ran fine.
is the torque converter my issue?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 13, 2006, 10:12:40 AM
Scott I'm gonna have come up to WV and beat you over the head with a cam(guess your lucky I gave my last old one to the s guy the other day)... With the EFI system, unless the engine will IDLE at least 16"-18" of vac @ 600/700 rpm it will NEVER idle without problems.
To prove this use a hand vac pump and pull 18"-20" of vac on the MAP sensor, it should idle if you don't have other issues.
The converter has nothing to do with it(assuming it's not defective).
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on August 13, 2006, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50
Scott I'm gonna have come up to WV and beat you over the head with a cam.
that might hurt:D i need to swap in a computer from a v8,,, ive been looking at the evtm on the v6 / v8 cfi eec and the pinouts from the tfi cable out the same on both computers so i thought the v6/v8 eec were interchangeable. i , once upon a time, installed a v8 eec in the coug when the v6 engine was in and it ran fine. maybe it wont work visa versa like i have it.
i tried to check the vac presue but it was pointless. ill bet the eec is needing swapped.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 13, 2006, 12:54:21 PM
You can stick 40 Speed Densety EECs in it, it ain't gonna idle without decent vacspooge...
The Hot Rod guys figured that out 20 years ago...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on August 13, 2006, 10:35:09 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50
You can stick 40 Speed Densety EECs in it, it ain't gonna idle without decent vacspooge...
The Hot Rod guys figured that out 20 years ago...
well isnt this just great,,, page 6 and this just gets brought up.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 14, 2006, 12:29:18 AM
Quote from: jcassity
well isnt this just great,,, page 6 and this just gets brought up.
Recheck your PMs...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on October 28, 2006, 11:43:07 PM
does anyone know if there is a product that i can use to plug off the egr port on these heads. I dont want exhaust heat to enter the intake anymore from the second E valve on each head so i was wondering how some of the guys in the race industry block off this port. see the red arrow.
Im working out a couple issues on these heads, i have not worked on the car since i last posted due to working away.
maybe someone has an idea. Ive been thinking of a thin stanless plate about .015'' thick.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on October 30, 2006, 08:27:00 AM
anyone?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 30, 2006, 11:36:57 AM
jb weld each port/hump in the exhaust, maybe? or buy some non-emission heads?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on October 30, 2006, 08:54:58 PM
thats a purdy big port to fill with jb weld. not too comfortable with that thought but thanks for the help. I was hoping someone may know of a plug.
Anyone ever done this before? Blocking off the egr port in the heads? i just learned about it.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 30, 2006, 10:39:55 PM
as long as it doesnt cause any clearance problems myself id do what you were thinking of--bolt a thin metal plate on there! just has to make a good seal, not like its holding back a ton of pressure right?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 30, 2006, 11:23:38 PM
Quote from: jcassity;110808
thats a purdy big port to fill with jb weld. not too comfortable with that thought but thanks for the help. I was hoping someone may know of a plug.
Anyone ever done this before? Blocking off the egr port in the heads? i just learned about it.
i wasnt talking about the one in your pic. im talking about the small holes in each exhaust port on the valve side.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: blown306 on November 02, 2006, 05:55:42 PM
never heard of a plug, but a thin plate should do the trick: As long as it seals off.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: blown306 on November 02, 2006, 05:57:21 PM
C'mon Scott get your ass moving on this progect I'ts been an awfull long progect!
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: blown306 on November 02, 2006, 05:58:59 PM
What's the prob w/the heads?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: HAVI on November 05, 2006, 10:17:00 AM
I think I have an article where they drill and tap out the egr ports, and thread in a recessed plug(female hex). I don't have it in front of me though. Also, FWIW, I have an aluminum intake with casting RF-E1AE-9425-FA, with built in egr. It's a 2bbl, but is definitely a low rise. An engine machine shop employee/friend gave it to me. No idea what car it came from, but I'm guessing early 80's mustang or pinto. Seem right?
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on November 19, 2006, 11:24:24 PM
that would be an 81 mustang intake. The HO did not arrive until 82. your intake is prob the same exact one i have been screwing around with.
UPDATE on the project,, i pluged off the center port with a fabricated plug (sort ot) but anyway it works fine. To be honest,,as expected i am having issues but tomorrow is my big day,, flight of the cougar will happen tomorrow evening after i get done job shopping on monster for the morning hours. These heads only have one egr port and it is only ported to the second exhaust valve on each head,,,,,very different from later heads since these are 41 years old.
Nick/Tom im about ready to say you guys were right on the air flow, it seems to run best with my AFR turned way down to like 30 which is the min this regulator will go. It also does not time worth a ,,, the marks are wayyyyyyyyyyy out of sight when i dial it in and it runs best. However,, i do have perfect vac from what i see ,,(bout 12 psi at idle) and with steady trottle applied it staggers down and recovers to about 20psi within a second. I cut my valve seats because it was evident whomever cut the initial ones did not cut enough , there was barely any valve angle cut at all on the heads. From what i can gather, there was only a single angle valve job done which was the 46deg one so i complied with what was existing and cut away. My results were very good, i came up with 190psi of compression with a bone cold motor and no wd40 added.
I noticed that the plugs were way foul and so i reduced my fuel to the min setting and discovered it wouild idle better and accept throttle response with the least amount of studder before it overcame perhaps the lack of air. Ill hook up the exhaust tomorrow and find out exactly what kind of shape im in. ive noticed from the previous test drives that i do stagger at mid throttle but something gives in and it starts to pull and it does not seem to stop pulling. Its gotta be an air flow thing but i dont know for the life of me what to do about the timing thing.
I have a question though,,,,,, i noticed my valves are not magnetic,,, what does that mean as far as quality goes?
another favor,, can someone verify with me that a V6 CFI engine and dizzy wires up the EEC on the exact pins as a V8? This would be a simple comparsion of the 85 V6 to the 85 V8. I come up with each engine being wired up the eec on the same pins and it leads me to believe that the dizzy is the only thing telling the eec its an 8 vs a 6 cyl. this is why i continue to use my V6 computer on the v8 i have now. I keep looking over my shoulder at that other intake with the carb on it.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 20, 2006, 01:42:04 PM
Quote from: jcassity;114584
These heads only have one egr port and it is only ported to the second exhaust valve on each head,,,,,very different from later heads since these are 41 years old.
Thats the heat crossover(EGR was yet to come) to increase fuel vaporation in cold weather, with a carb you'd definatly want it open... There is gaskets intended for racing engines that have them blocked..
Quote from: jcassity;114584
but i dont know for the life of me what to do about the timing thing.
You sure you have the correct ballancer for the timing cover??? The '69-earlier 289/302s have the marks on the driver side while '70-up had them on the passenger side...
Quote from: jcassity;114584
I have a question though,,,,,, i noticed my valves are not magnetic,,, what does that mean as far as quality goes?
$hit I dunno... Maybe they are made of plastic??? I thought all valves were generally steel...
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: stuntmannick on November 20, 2006, 05:35:03 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;114680
$hit I dunno... Maybe they are made of plastic??? I thought all valves were generally steel...
They're probably stainless. Stainless can be both magnetic and non. I'm trying to remember my Materials Eng class...
Notes (couple of types of SS): Martensitic: hard, strong, magnetic
Austenitic: Stabilized to room temp, non-magnetic, not hardenable, corrosion resistant.
There's gotta be something wrong with these notes. I'll see if I can't find more.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2006, 07:30:47 PM
Tom The engine block is an E0 casting and times on the pass side. Im using a reman'd linc towncar dizzy new from the zone. this timing thing is the reason i posted that pic of the "one tooth off" theory.
As for the valves,, they are not magnetic but what is even more screwy is the tip of the valve is magnetic where th roller rocker makes contact. The rest of the valve from the keepers down are not magnetic. I was thinking they must be stainless.
I got side tracked today with a job offer so i could not get to putting on my mustang shorties and my hooking up to the existing exhaust. This exsiting exhaust is a temp thing till i get it running ok. I love these new compression numbers though.
to be honest,, i dont think things are gonna work out like i thought they would but i cant say nobody told me so.
I hope someone has time to take a quick look and compare the cfi 5.0 to the cfi 3.8 to check if the DIZZY and INJECTORS connect up in the same on the eec ect. This should not be too hard if someone has dospoogeentation. I am having a terrible time locating a CFI 302 eec from bone yards for some odd reason.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: softtouch on November 21, 2006, 06:12:04 PM
From the '84 shop manual: The 3.8 and 5.0 EEC pin-out is the same for the two fuel injectors and the TFI connector.
Also from the manual: Self-Test Code Output Format;
The engine ID codes are issued at the beginning of engine running test. These codes are used to verify the proper processor is installed and that the self test has been entered.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2006, 04:05:04 PM
so perhaps i do not need to swap in a cfi V8 eec. I also noticed the 86 and up wiring for the dizzy is the same as the cfi and sefi v6's.
There may be something to the processor not seeing something though.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: softtouch on November 28, 2006, 06:21:36 PM
From the '84 shop manual: Differences between 3.8 and 5.0 EEC pin-out.
Pin 4--3.8 not used, 5.0 Ignition Diagnostic Monitor Pin 5--3.8 Key Power, 5.0 not used Pin 21--3.8 Idle Speed Control, 5.0 not used Pin 28--3.8 Idle Tracking Switch, 5.0 not used pin 29--3.8 Ego Sensor Left, 5.0 Ego Sensor pin 30--3.8 Neutral Drive Switch, 5.0 not used pin 34--3.8 not used, 5.0 Data Output Link for Tripminder pin 35--3.8 not used, 5.0 Canister Purge Solenoid pin 41--3.8 Idle Speed Control, 5.0 not used pin 43--3.8 EGO Sensor-Right, 5.0 not used pin 44--3.8 EGO Ground-Right, 5.0 not used pin 49--3.8 EGO Ground-Left, 5.0 EGO Ground pin 53--3.8 not used, 5.0 Throttle Kicker Solenoid pin 55--3.8 Exhaust Heat Control, 5.0 not used
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: CougarSE on November 28, 2006, 06:45:25 PM
Scott, why dont you just get a 5.0 wiring harness for an 87? And a mustang HO intake? I know where both are at right now, and if you speak quick I can get them for you.
Title: 306 swap in work
Post by: jcassity on November 29, 2006, 12:21:51 AM
Quote from: CougarSE;115981
Scott, why dont you just get a 5.0 wiring harness for an 87? And a mustang HO intake? I know where both are at right now, and if you speak quick I can get them for you.
yeah,, too easy though:grinno: seriously i have made progress and inherited a grimlin in the oil pan. Somehow i am hearing a random noise which sounds exactly like the oil sump clacking around in there. Since the darn pan is toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo large anyway, ill change out the pan and install my double sump i have now.
problem 1>> i have to pull the engine again to do this. I have zero clearance if you call .030 clearance at all. Cant wait to get rid of that darn 8qt pan anyway. Ill start on it sometime this week while i work on job hunting.
I may even consider tossing this cam like it was advised to me way back. I dont know just yet but it would make someone a nice cam,,i just happen to believe it is just exactly what everyone said,, too large,,too agressive and too much for efi. With a carb it was fine, perhaps an F cam would work out better.
As far as the 87 harness goes,, im trying to stay tuned to tbi or cfi. If i go sefi, then im pretty much bound to all the extra rules about those engines and all the extra sensors. With CFI, all i gotta have is the dizzy , tps and two injectors hooked up. Nothing else needs to be in the mix. My v6 ran great for many years with all the other stuff gone and i know the 5.0 cfi setup i had could do the same if i still had that car. I have had a couple bad luck issues with the tranny lines and exhaust, valve seats ect so i expect this round 2 to be interesting to say the least.