Engine to Battery Size

Topic: Engine to Battery Size (Read 3946 times) previous topic - next topic

Engine to Battery Size

August 25, 2009, 01:40:28 PM

This may... or may not be an odd question.

I am having electrical issues with the bird. It went in for paint, and after a couple days the guy called and said my battery keeps draining. They only took a couple of ground wires off of the front of the engine bay where the hood pole thing lies... but that's it. I took the ground wires off and made sure there is good connection and no paint under them.

The battery will not hold a charge. The alternator is just fine. I charged the battery overnight and it started in the morning. A half hour after I got to work it was low again.

A buddy told me that my battery is way too small for the size of engine I have. He has an older F150 that he said he had a similar problem with. He said he would either burn through batteries or that the battery would do wierd electrical things in the truck.

Last night on the way home from work my driver side window would not go up. So I figured ahhh-haaa there's the issue. I changed the switch, and nothing. So I took the window motor out and put a spare in. It worked just fine. I hooked up the old one and noticed that when it was not under load of the window that the gear was moving. So put it back together and I am still scratching my head.

I had a 351w installed a year ago and at that time the battery was new. The battery does look physicall small to me(and everybody else who has looked at my engine) I think it only has 600 cranking amps.

Anyway, does anybody have experience with this? Can a large engine mess with a battery that is too small?

- Ever Grateful
Kyle

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #1 – August 25, 2009, 02:52:20 PM

I'm not sure if it's to small, but it's not unheard of to have a bad battery in a year.
Charge it up and do a load test, or charge and take it to somewhere like AZ and have them test it. I'm a construction mechanic and I have battery's fail quite often.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #2 – August 25, 2009, 05:24:42 PM

was your fender apr0ns painted also?
'85 has an external voltage regulator correct?
the battery thing sounds like nonsense unless you have a thumping ghetto blasting system in there with a tiny geo metro battery running it. i dont think its your battery if its only a year old.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #3 – August 25, 2009, 05:46:20 PM

I sell batteries for a living. Typical Ford battery group sizes are 58 and 65. Mine has a 58. The most important thing is to match the cold cranking amp requirements (CCA). Physical size of the battery has no bearing on anything if it meets the required CCA's.

How long did the car sit while getting paint? Did they unfasten the negative cable from the battery before working on it? Did they allow the dome light to remain on while working on it with the doors open? If it sat too long with the negative cable fastened then any small parasitic drain with render the battery discharged after several days.

Also, it's never a good thing to unfasten major junctions of chassis ground wires if the battery is not disconncted first. Current can backfeed through the electrical system looking for a ground until it finds one, damaging certain parts and drain the battery.

Take it somewhere and do a battery, starting, alternator and drain test. 9 times out of ten it's a defective or discharged battery. And yes, batteries will go bad within a year if they are not used regularly with a charge maintained. That is one reason you never see long warranties on marine and farm equimment batteries. The enemy of a battery is heat and being repeatedly discharged.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #4 – August 25, 2009, 06:33:04 PM

Quote from: Ductape91;288224

was your fender apr0ns painted also?
'85 has an external voltage regulator correct?
the battery thing sounds like nonsense unless you have a thumping ghetto blasting system in there with a tiny geo metro battery running it. i dont think its your battery if its only a year old.

They did not paint the inner fender apr0ns. I did have to replace the driver side fender, however.

I am not sure about the external V.R.

And nope, just a pretty basic Clarion radio, 4 speaker system. Nothing special at all.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #5 – August 25, 2009, 06:37:28 PM

Quote from: Watchdevil;288227

I sell batteries for a living. Typical Ford battery group sizes are 58 and 65. Mine has a 58. The most important thing is to match the cold cranking amp requirements (CCA). Physical size of the battery has no bearing on anything if it meets the required CCA's.

How long did the car sit while getting paint? Did they unfasten the negative cable from the battery before working on it? Did they allow the dome light to remain on while working on it with the doors open? If it sat too long with the negative cable fastened then any small parasitic drain with render the battery discharged after several days.

Also, it's never a good thing to unfasten major junctions of chassis ground wires if the battery is not disconncted first. Current can backfeed through the electrical system looking for a ground until it finds one, damaging certain parts and drain the battery.

Take it somewhere and do a battery, starting, alternator and drain test. 9 times out of ten it's a defective or discharged battery. And yes, batteries will go bad within a year if they are not used regularly with a charge maintained. That is one reason you never see long warranties on marine and farm equimment batteries. The enemy of a battery is heat and being repeatedly discharged.

I will have to ask the order in which they took the ground and battery loose. I will also see if they could have drained it somehow by leaving a light on or whatever. The guy worked on it after work alot, so it got moved many times before ping out though.

I know one thing for sure, the engine compartment gets pretty warm with that 351 in there.

I'll take it down to my favorite fellas and have them perform all of the checks on it. I'm REALLY hoping it is just the battery. It could take forever to find the issue other-wise.

Here is a list of things that changes while being painted:

Changed driver side fender
Changed trunk
Painted inside of doors, trunk, hood
Removed windshield wipers & wiper motor
Took two grounds off front of car inside hood (where the bar goes to hold the hood up)

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #6 – August 25, 2009, 09:28:41 PM

Yes your 85 should have the external regulator. Then they changed the trunk lid. The switch for the trunk light is mounted on the arms that hold in on. If they had the deck lid off for an extended time that could be the offender. Those grounds up front on the Rad support is for the front end lights.

Stuckman

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #7 – August 25, 2009, 10:24:28 PM

I have the smallest cheapest auto battery money can buy at wallmart. My car starts and runs fine.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #8 – August 25, 2009, 11:36:34 PM

Quote from: ipsd;288269

Yes your 85 should have the external regulator. Then they changed the trunk lid. The switch for the trunk light is mounted on the arms that hold in on. If they had the deck lid off for an extended time that could be the offender. Those grounds up front on the Rad support is for the front end lights.

Stuckman

The trunk definately was off for an extended period, however the problem still existed/exists with it all back together.

No problems with the lights. And you are right, those grounds are right behind the lights and go into the wiring harness. The lights work fine.

I'm sure I'll find out much more tomorrow afternoon when I take sweetness down to the shop.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #9 – August 26, 2009, 12:15:09 AM

Quote from: 85bird;288287

The trunk definately was off for an extended period, however the problem still existed/exists with it all back together.

No problems with the lights. And you are right, those grounds are right behind the lights and go into the wiring harness. The lights work fine.

Yup they got something to do with the blinkers. Before my bird was mine my buddy wrecked it. The front headlight area got whacked and the lights were all toast. Got new lights installed and everything worked but the blinker on that side wouldn't blink. It would turn on but not blink found that ground broken. I fixed it and it blinked like it should. That is on my 84 TC with those front fender white turn lights that shine to light the area your going to. That might make a difference.

Stuckman

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #10 – August 27, 2009, 01:45:42 AM

ha,, my thoughts...........

some dick head jump started it wrong and you ended up with a jacked up alternator or voltage regulator and thus pumping AC voltage into your nice juicy but over cooked battery.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #11 – August 27, 2009, 02:34:19 PM

Test the alternator too. Might be draining back through it.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #12 – August 28, 2009, 01:03:59 PM

Update:

The battery was bad. So it was replaced. The alternator was good. I drove the car Wed, Thurs, and Friday morning it was dead again.

uuuggghh.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #13 – August 28, 2009, 09:52:30 PM

Quote from: 85bird;288685

Update:

The battery was bad. So it was replaced. The alternator was good. I drove the car Wed, Thurs, and Friday morning it was dead again.

uuuggghh.

There has to be a significant drain on the battery when the car is off. You just gotta find what it is. A simple battery, starting, alternator and drain test performed at any Advance Auto Parts can confirm a drain when the ignition switch is off and the doors closed. If the underhood light works, make sure you undo the bulb or unplug it during the test. Both the underhood light and trunklid light use mercury switches that break the circuit when the lids are lowered.

If you comfirm there is a drain, then you need to start looking for circuits that may have stuck relays, faulty switches stuck in an on or closed position, etc. You may also check the ignition switch to be sure it has not worn out to the point it no longer disengages contacts when it is in the off position.

It just jogged my memory this very moment that one time I helped a customer find a drain in his Ford Crown Vic after buying a new battery and it was quite simply a worn out rear defogger switch just like the ones we have in our Birds and Cats. It took me quite a while to figure it out because it was not so obvious. The switch was so worn out it would vibrate itself into the on position and stick there. The little defroster-on light is often hard to see illuminated, especially in daylight. The switch is active whether the ignition switch is on or off. You'll notice if you hold down the defroster switch with the key out of the ignition it will light up and activate the defogger relay, but a good switch will spring back immediately to the off position and completely disengage the circuit. Holding the switch to the off position eliminated the draim and replacing the switch eliminated the problem completely.

On the fender mounted starter selenoid, there should be no current passing from the battery side large terminal to the starter side large terminal. The current should only pass when the small "S" terminal on the selenoid gets 12V+ from the ignition switch only when the switch is in the start position.

Engine to Battery Size

Reply #14 – August 29, 2009, 12:29:58 AM

Quote from: Watchdevil;288743

There has to be a significant drain on the battery when the car is off.

Good stuff! (all of it, I didn't want to quote the whole thing to save space)

After work this evening I removed the stereo and confirmed that all was good. I repositoned the ground becaue it was a bit loose. I checked the lighter and all wired in the stereo area. I then removed every panel that the people who painted my car removed. Nothing out of the ordinary was found.

One thing I did notice was ... With the key out of the ignition, I would turn on the ignition swith as if I were starting the car. I wiggled it to see if loose, etc. Well - when I push in and up as to start the cart I can make the door ajar ding, ding, ding go off. My door happened to be open and the ding is of course normal when the key is in. Not sure if it is relevant. The ignition switch was changed only a matter of months ago by professionals.

Last Tuesday, before getting the new battery … I got off work, got jumped, and headed home. I put the windows down and when I tried to put the driver side window up, it would not go up. The next day at work I replaced the switch and nothing. I then took the window motor out and tried it while not under load. It worked. I checked all connections and wires and reinstalled. The window has worked fine ever since. Just another “oddity” that may, or may not be relevant.

All the lights work properly, including turn signals, etc. The hood does not have a light anymore. I have not removed the seats to check the power seat wiring yet.

My rear defogger has had one of the window connections “disconnected” from the window for years and years. It obviously has not worked. I do know what you’re talking about. The actual defogger has been used very little and seems normal… however I will check for sure. I have a spare air control unit I could try.

Is there a way to narrow down where the pull is coming from . . . .Maybe by removing the fuses one by one? That way I could at least narrow the circuit. But, what would I need to do such a thing. I have a volt meter that measures DC. I have never used it, though. I know nothing about electrical stuff.. and my Father-in-law gave it to me as a present.

The py thing is that I do not have time off of work until Wednesday afternoon. I’m not a very patient person. I wish I had some magic Ford dust.