Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: custompunk on September 25, 2015, 01:04:08 PM
Post by: custompunk on September 25, 2015, 01:04:08 PM
I went by the coolcats webpage and did the 11 inch brake upgrade. Donor parts were from 88-93 Mustang GT, 5.0.
Swapped spindles, rotors, calipers, hoses, bearings. Springs and Struts are not new.
The struts required washers to space correctly where it attached to the spindle. But the real problem is the alignment. I have an appointment to get it aligned tomorrow but I'm afraid they will just laugh and send me back home. Any help with how I can correct the strut alignment would be great. What would happen if I drilled out the rivet on the alignment plate on the strut mount and moved it to a different notch? Here is a pic of the alignment of the wheel the verticle is the issue.
if i need CC plates will these mustang ones work? http://www.jegs.com/i/BBK+Performance+Parts/129/2525/10002/-1
Swapped spindles, rotors, calipers, hoses, bearings. Springs and Struts are not new.
The struts required washers to space correctly where it attached to the spindle. But the real problem is the alignment. I have an appointment to get it aligned tomorrow but I'm afraid they will just laugh and send me back home. Any help with how I can correct the strut alignment would be great. What would happen if I drilled out the rivet on the alignment plate on the strut mount and moved it to a different notch? Here is a pic of the alignment of the wheel the verticle is the issue.
if i need CC plates will these mustang ones work? http://www.jegs.com/i/BBK+Performance+Parts/129/2525/10002/-1
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: bigbada1 on September 25, 2015, 01:35:16 PM
Post by: bigbada1 on September 25, 2015, 01:35:16 PM
If you need CC Plates use the TBird one's from MM
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: custompunk on September 25, 2015, 01:40:48 PM
Post by: custompunk on September 25, 2015, 01:40:48 PM
I'm in a bind to get this back on the road. I wasn't expecting downtime since the writeup sounded like this was an easy job. This car is a daily driver so I don't have time to order from MM. Jegs has those BBK ones in stock in my area and I can get them today and have it aligned tomorrow. From what I understand all I need to do is elongate a hole to make the mustang CC plates work. I however would like to save the money if I can and not use them but somehow I manage to screw up a simple brake upgrade.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Ramos617 on September 25, 2015, 07:48:36 PM
Post by: Ramos617 on September 25, 2015, 07:48:36 PM
Wow that angle is pretty extreme, i would definitely drill out the rivet and at least move the strut all the way in
if that doesnt fix then it will at least give you an idea if the CC plates will work or not
if that doesnt fix then it will at least give you an idea if the CC plates will work or not
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: JeremyB on September 26, 2015, 11:05:44 PM
Post by: JeremyB on September 26, 2015, 11:05:44 PM
Never done his swap myself, but haven't seen anybody have this problem before.
Do both wheels have the same amount of positive camber?
Was there much play between the spindle and the spindle attach bolts?
Do both wheels have the same amount of positive camber?
Was there much play between the spindle and the spindle attach bolts?
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 27, 2015, 04:19:02 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 27, 2015, 04:19:02 PM
Jeez, that's bad. Did you use Mustang lower control arms or something? I've never seen camber issues like that arise from swapping Mustang/TC spindles in. I'd be worried about bent spindles
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: JeremyB on September 27, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
Post by: JeremyB on September 27, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;451407
Jeez, that's bad. Did you use Mustang lower control arms or something? I've never seen camber issues like that arise from swapping Mustang/TC spindles in. I'd be worried about bent spindles
But his '84 LCAs should be the same length as Fox Mustang LCAs. Bent spindles is the only thing I can think of besides something like using fasteners from a camber adjustment cam without the came. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1140220,parttype,13512
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: custompunk on September 28, 2015, 04:36:37 PM
Post by: custompunk on September 28, 2015, 04:36:37 PM
I drilled the strut tower out and adjusted the camber in a lot. Took it to the alignment shop and they couldn't get it into alignment. I have ordered Fox Mustang Struts, and Fox T-bird MM CC plates. Gonna swap out the struts and mounts, then take it back for alignment. The spindles were not bent. The adjustment on the strut tower was the cause of the camber issue. I had to drill out the rivet holding the plate that allows adjustment and move it all the way in.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on September 29, 2015, 01:04:15 AM
Post by: Beau on September 29, 2015, 01:04:15 AM
You might need to get some of the offset bolts. Basically you rotate them just so until you get the camber where you need it, then tighten them down. I've a pair that came off of a '94 or 95....
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 29, 2015, 03:10:59 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 29, 2015, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;451407
Jeez, that's bad. Did you use Mustang lower control arms or something? I've never seen camber issues like that arise from swapping Mustang/TC spindles in. I'd be worried about bent spindles
Yeah that shouldn't happen. Should just bolt in with no alignment issues.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: vinnietbird on September 29, 2015, 05:40:22 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 29, 2015, 05:40:22 PM
I know that SN-95 control arms are the sae as ours, but I always thought that the Fox tang front control arms are shorter.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on September 29, 2015, 05:58:48 PM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on September 29, 2015, 05:58:48 PM
I did the same upgrade with parts from an 88lx on my 84 and my alignment guy couldn't believe how close it was before he started.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: mcb82gt on September 29, 2015, 06:52:35 PM
Post by: mcb82gt on September 29, 2015, 06:52:35 PM
If I remember right, mine kinda did that. It got aligned pretty good though.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on September 30, 2015, 02:46:49 AM
Post by: Beau on September 30, 2015, 02:46:49 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;451471
I know that SN-95 control arms are the sae as ours, but I always thought that the Fox tang front control arms are shorter.
On the '86-'88 Cougars and Birds, the SN95 arms are the same, but OP's car is an '84. The '85 and down years had the same style K member and c/a as the Fox stangs did...mounts too.
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Ramos617 on October 01, 2015, 01:21:41 AM
Post by: Ramos617 on October 01, 2015, 01:21:41 AM
Isn't it 83-86 use the Fox arms and 87/88 use the sn95 length?
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on October 01, 2015, 10:37:32 AM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on October 01, 2015, 10:37:32 AM
Why change the arms in the first Place?
Title: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: custompunk on October 02, 2015, 03:32:24 PM
Post by: custompunk on October 02, 2015, 03:32:24 PM
I didn't change the A-Arms. They are stock 1984 TC arms. I did change springs to SN95 springs. Struts and Strut Mounts are Autozone replacements for 1984. Today I am swapping out the struts for 88 Mustang struts and will be installing MM Caster Camber plates for Fox Birds.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on March 28, 2021, 11:21:23 PM
Post by: Driverguy on March 28, 2021, 11:21:23 PM
Was this issue ever resolved? I have the same problem on my 88 right now...massive positive camber. adjusted the top mounts all the way inboard and the camber remains...ride height is about an inch higher too...so besides buying the CC plates, which seems to be a band-aid for the situation...what is the solution? is the angle on the 11' spindles different than the 10'?
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on March 29, 2021, 01:27:49 AM
Post by: Beau on March 29, 2021, 01:27:49 AM
Was this issue ever resolved? I have the same problem on my 88 right now...massive positive camber. adjusted the top mounts all the way inboard and the camber remains...ride height is about an inch higher too...so besides buying the CC plates, which seems to be a band-aid for the situation...what is the solution? is the angle on the 11' spindles different than the 10'?
What struts did you use?
If you used Fox CA's on the '86, '87 and '88 K member, you'll get positive camber for sure. Also, using Fox Stang struts will cause some issues unless your car is lowered. Use SN95 struts for stockish height, on that note.
There's also of course the differences between the '94-5 spindled and the 96 and up spindles but that's not going to be a concern for you with this camber issue.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on March 29, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
Post by: Driverguy on March 29, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
Was this issue ever resolved? I have the same problem on my 88 right now...massive positive camber. adjusted the top mounts all the way inboard and the camber remains...ride height is about an inch higher too...so besides buying the CC plates, which seems to be a band-aid for the situation...what is the solution? is the angle on the 11' spindles different than the 10'?Ok, did you keep your stock control arms (a arms), or did you use the Fox stang arms?
What struts did you use?
If you used Fox CA's on the '86, '87 and '88 K member, you'll get positive camber for sure. Also, using Fox Stang struts will cause some issues unless your car is lowered. Use SN95 struts for stockish height, on that note.
There's also of course the differences between the '94-5 spindled and the 96 and up spindles but that's not going to be a concern for you with this camber issue.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 29, 2021, 10:09:29 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 29, 2021, 10:09:29 PM
Did you remove the lower control arm and/or remove the springs during the installation of the 11" brake spindles?
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on March 30, 2021, 08:15:24 AM
Post by: Beau on March 30, 2021, 08:15:24 AM
what are the spindles from? V8 Mustang? Though those alone won't cause the camber issue you have..
One other thing, and I think this is what aerocoupe may be getting at....did you loosen the control arm-to-frame bolts?
If you undo them, and then retorque with the suspension unloaded, you'll have some of what you have now.
I've seen a few junkyard Mustangs with those offset bolts that can be turned to alter the the camber, do you have those in there, by chance? Though I don't think they were used on regular 11" spindles. I think the ones I saw were all on SN95 and newer mustangs (5 lug stuff).
Lastly can you get a few pics of what you have?
One other thing, and I think this is what aerocoupe may be getting at....did you loosen the control arm-to-frame bolts?
If you undo them, and then retorque with the suspension unloaded, you'll have some of what you have now.
I've seen a few junkyard Mustangs with those offset bolts that can be turned to alter the the camber, do you have those in there, by chance? Though I don't think they were used on regular 11" spindles. I think the ones I saw were all on SN95 and newer mustangs (5 lug stuff).
Lastly can you get a few pics of what you have?
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 30, 2021, 06:36:33 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 30, 2021, 06:36:33 PM
That is exactly what I was getting at along with making sure you have the pigtail on the coil spring placed correctly into the LCA.
Turn the front driver wheel all the way to make a right hand turn and take a picture from the back of the wheel so we can see all of the suspension. Turn the wheel all the way to make a left hand turn and take a picture from the front of the wheel so we can see all of the suspension.
Turn the front driver wheel all the way to make a right hand turn and take a picture from the back of the wheel so we can see all of the suspension. Turn the wheel all the way to make a left hand turn and take a picture from the front of the wheel so we can see all of the suspension.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on March 30, 2021, 07:10:17 PM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on March 30, 2021, 07:10:17 PM
From your signature. "Custom fabricated front frame rails" Was the suspension altered during this work possibly ?
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on March 30, 2021, 09:28:22 PM
Post by: Driverguy on March 30, 2021, 09:28:22 PM
Firstly...my signature is 10 years out of date, this is my 2nd cougar and it's all original, not ized at all. No, I did not unbolt the control arms or remove the springs in any way; i cracked the ball joint, lowered the control arm down with the floor jack to replace the spindle, then jacked it back up into position.
I had a problem similar to what you are predicting with my 1st cougar, in that the control arm bushings were seized and would not articulate at all, basically giving me solid suspension. But, i am able to freely bounce this car on its suspension.
Are the shocks/springs different on an 11" equipped car??
I had a problem similar to what you are predicting with my 1st cougar, in that the control arm bushings were seized and would not articulate at all, basically giving me solid suspension. But, i am able to freely bounce this car on its suspension.
Are the shocks/springs different on an 11" equipped car??
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 30, 2021, 11:13:06 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 30, 2021, 11:13:06 PM
So what I am looking for is a shot like this from the front:
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/attachments/dsc_0543-jpg.599908/
And then one from the back with the same wheel turned the complete opposite direction.
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/attachments/dsc_0543-jpg.599908/
And then one from the back with the same wheel turned the complete opposite direction.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on March 31, 2021, 06:29:24 PM
Post by: Beau on March 31, 2021, 06:29:24 PM
Are the shocks/springs different on an 11" equipped car??
You didn't happen to change sway bar end links did you? I read a thread on a different forum several years ago where a guy put the wrong ones in his Stang, caused the front to sit about an inch higher in front than it did before, though that won't affect camber (or affect it enough to visually see it..)
They ended up being too long and from a completely different vehicle, too...
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 31, 2021, 08:35:17 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 31, 2021, 08:35:17 PM
So changing the height of the front vehicle directly affects the static camber. Taller will pull the bottom of the tire in (positive camber) lower will push the bottom of the tire out (negative camber).
So on a 24" tall tire one (1) degree of negative static camber at the tire moves the top of the tire in 0.21" and the bottom out 0.21" and move the tire the opposite way for positive camber. This is a very generalized down and dirty calculation just using tan theta = opp/adj with theta = 1 degree and adj - 24" and in this case 1 deg = 0.42". For a tire another generalized notion is that its just not the top or bottom of the tire doing all the movement being the tire is pinned to the spindle at its center. This would roughly split the movement equally to the top and bottom of the tire.
Anyhow, Chuck can really put some math to this but all I was doing was trying to give you an general idea as to how much you can expect the top and bottom of the tire to move when adjusting camber.
So if you lower a car by putting shorter springs in it you get negative camber and have to move the top of the strut towards the motor. If you raise a car by installing taller springs then you will have to move the top of the strut away from the motor.
Putting the front sway bar in a bind can raise the car. For the front sway bar you should be able to freely rotate it in the frame mount bushings with little to no effort if the bushings are made of prothane and greased. If the frame mount bushings are OEM rubber then it will take a little effort to move them when new and the contact surface on the sway bar is clean and not pitted. In either instance you should finish tightening the frame mount bushing bolts with the suspension loaded and the bar ends as close to parallel to the ground as you can get them. With that once you install the end links the ends of the bar should still be parallel to the ground. I tighten the end links until the bushings are flush with the washers and use nylock nuts. Due to my cars being lowered I have to cut the sleeve that goes in between the bottom bar washer and the top control arm washer to get the bar ends parallel to the ground. Which also means finding shorter grade 5 or 8 end link bolts at the hardware store.
So on a 24" tall tire one (1) degree of negative static camber at the tire moves the top of the tire in 0.21" and the bottom out 0.21" and move the tire the opposite way for positive camber. This is a very generalized down and dirty calculation just using tan theta = opp/adj with theta = 1 degree and adj - 24" and in this case 1 deg = 0.42". For a tire another generalized notion is that its just not the top or bottom of the tire doing all the movement being the tire is pinned to the spindle at its center. This would roughly split the movement equally to the top and bottom of the tire.
Anyhow, Chuck can really put some math to this but all I was doing was trying to give you an general idea as to how much you can expect the top and bottom of the tire to move when adjusting camber.
So if you lower a car by putting shorter springs in it you get negative camber and have to move the top of the strut towards the motor. If you raise a car by installing taller springs then you will have to move the top of the strut away from the motor.
Putting the front sway bar in a bind can raise the car. For the front sway bar you should be able to freely rotate it in the frame mount bushings with little to no effort if the bushings are made of prothane and greased. If the frame mount bushings are OEM rubber then it will take a little effort to move them when new and the contact surface on the sway bar is clean and not pitted. In either instance you should finish tightening the frame mount bushing bolts with the suspension loaded and the bar ends as close to parallel to the ground as you can get them. With that once you install the end links the ends of the bar should still be parallel to the ground. I tighten the end links until the bushings are flush with the washers and use nylock nuts. Due to my cars being lowered I have to cut the sleeve that goes in between the bottom bar washer and the top control arm washer to get the bar ends parallel to the ground. Which also means finding shorter grade 5 or 8 end link bolts at the hardware store.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Chuck W on April 01, 2021, 12:47:51 PM
Post by: Chuck W on April 01, 2021, 12:47:51 PM
Looking at your pics, the front is toed-in, that's not helping things. But it's also sitting higher, which is going to affect toe and camber, as mentioned. (The wheel turning in also adds positive camber to the "outside" wheel on a (stock) Fox-chassis car. Toeing in means both wheels are acting like the "outside" wheel)
You mentioned that you didn't loosen the lower control arm mounts, but how far did you allow the arm to drop when you loosened the ball joint? It's possible you put a bind in the bushings when you did that, and now they have a new "set", causing the bushings to add some lift to the front.
The spindles aren't the problem (other than possibly affecting the toe setting), so my guess is control arm bushings.
Try loosening the control arm bolts and bouncing the front of the car, or taking it for a short spin to see if things settle back down, then tighten them back up with the weight of the car on the wheels.
You mentioned that you didn't loosen the lower control arm mounts, but how far did you allow the arm to drop when you loosened the ball joint? It's possible you put a bind in the bushings when you did that, and now they have a new "set", causing the bushings to add some lift to the front.
The spindles aren't the problem (other than possibly affecting the toe setting), so my guess is control arm bushings.
Try loosening the control arm bolts and bouncing the front of the car, or taking it for a short spin to see if things settle back down, then tighten them back up with the weight of the car on the wheels.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on April 01, 2021, 01:17:53 PM
Post by: Beau on April 01, 2021, 01:17:53 PM
Yes, I forgot to add that 11" spindle upgrade will definitely cause a toe-in issue. Though that's secondary here..(but as CHuck mentions, an issue to sort out all the same)
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Vintage on April 02, 2021, 02:19:52 PM
Post by: Vintage on April 02, 2021, 02:19:52 PM
You say you reused the original struts and only swapped the spindles. But the original 10" brake spindles have a thicker mounting pad on the spindle than the 11" spindles use. So you must have used spacers to make up the difference when you changed spindles.
I have gotten new store bought struts for these cars before where the strut body mounting ears had the wider spindle mount design even though they were spec'd for a 11" brake car. The reason? The common store bought strut manufacturers decided to stop making the struts in 2 versions, one with wider spindle mount ears, one with thin. Probably for cost reasons or to keep people from buying the wrong version. So they make them ALL with the wide and include in the plastic hardware bag a set of 2 rectangular steel spacers with predrilled bolt holes for the two strut mount bolts to make up that width difference.
I've also seen that where the strut mounting ears are welded onto the strut body vertically seems to vary quite a bit depending on manufacturer and vehicle application. If your car has previously had struts replaced, you may want to look at how far up or down the strut body your mounting ears are at. In my experience the 87-8 cars are camber sensitive to these details due to the longer front lower A arms.
I have gotten new store bought struts for these cars before where the strut body mounting ears had the wider spindle mount design even though they were spec'd for a 11" brake car. The reason? The common store bought strut manufacturers decided to stop making the struts in 2 versions, one with wider spindle mount ears, one with thin. Probably for cost reasons or to keep people from buying the wrong version. So they make them ALL with the wide and include in the plastic hardware bag a set of 2 rectangular steel spacers with predrilled bolt holes for the two strut mount bolts to make up that width difference.
I've also seen that where the strut mounting ears are welded onto the strut body vertically seems to vary quite a bit depending on manufacturer and vehicle application. If your car has previously had struts replaced, you may want to look at how far up or down the strut body your mounting ears are at. In my experience the 87-8 cars are camber sensitive to these details due to the longer front lower A arms.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 02, 2021, 03:46:22 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 02, 2021, 03:46:22 PM
Sorry I didnt get the message earlier about the pictures with the wheels turned, ill get those pictures shortyly...I think you may be onto something there about the bushings getting stuck in a new 'clocking' lets call it....its odd because i bounced the car on the suspension and it didnt seem stiff at all, nor did it lower itself down...but i shall try cracking the bolts loose. And yes, the 10" were narrower, i used spacers, 1 on either side of the knuckle, to make up the difference.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Beau on April 02, 2021, 06:59:20 PM
Post by: Beau on April 02, 2021, 06:59:20 PM
Having to use spacers for a narrower strut shouldn't cause the camber to be off. Those are two consistent points and the locations are very close to identical (if not exactly the same) between the 10" and the 11" spindles.
If you let the CA drop down as far as it would go, could it be possible the springs popped out of their pocket on the CA and caused what amounts to a taller spring? (that will certainly and definitely cause your issue)
The other thing I can think of is that the spindles were bent, like they came from a wrecked car. I'd doubt this is the case, but could be. I'd assume you know their source?
Last thing; did you happen to disconnect the swaybar end links and then not get 'em tightened up enough? They have to be nearly parallel to the ground (rather a smooth flat surface, preferably)
A couple of well lit pics of the underside of the front end help us I'd bet.
If you let the CA drop down as far as it would go, could it be possible the springs popped out of their pocket on the CA and caused what amounts to a taller spring? (that will certainly and definitely cause your issue)
The other thing I can think of is that the spindles were bent, like they came from a wrecked car. I'd doubt this is the case, but could be. I'd assume you know their source?
Last thing; did you happen to disconnect the swaybar end links and then not get 'em tightened up enough? They have to be nearly parallel to the ground (rather a smooth flat surface, preferably)
A couple of well lit pics of the underside of the front end help us I'd bet.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Here are some pics, if they dont show enough, i can take the wheels off and get more... I dont believe the springs rotated in their pockets, i never dropped it low enough for them to lose tension...i never touched the sway bar links either. The spindles, i bought them 10 years ago from someone on this forum...theyve just been sitting under a toolbench since then...i doubt both of the spindles would be able to be bent at such an angle to make this problem, the casting would just snap. turbo coupe/xr7/GT mustang 11" spindles ARE all the same right? I was told these were from a thunderbird, but...
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 11:45:22 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 11:45:22 AM
Spindles look correct. I want to say the only odd ball ones were the SVO Mustang units. They were based on the Mark VII spindle which has a larger taper in the spindle for the ball joint and some slight geometry differences but you would know if you had a set of them as it would swallow the ball joint without an adapter.
I would strongly suggest you 100% confirm the springs did not pop out of the “pocket” in the cup of the LCA. If that is good to go then loosen the LCA to k-member bolts and do as Chuck suggested.
On a side note you need to think about rebuilding those LCA’s and installing new sway bar end links. The years have not been kind.
I would strongly suggest you 100% confirm the springs did not pop out of the “pocket” in the cup of the LCA. If that is good to go then loosen the LCA to k-member bolts and do as Chuck suggested.
On a side note you need to think about rebuilding those LCA’s and installing new sway bar end links. The years have not been kind.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Vintage on April 03, 2021, 03:33:01 PM
Post by: Vintage on April 03, 2021, 03:33:01 PM
Having to use spacers for a narrower strut shouldn't cause the camber to be off. Those are two consistent points and the locations are very close to identical (if not exactly the same) between the 10" and the 11" spindles.
If you let the CA drop down as far as it would go, could it be possible the springs popped out of their pocket on the CA and caused what amounts to a taller spring? (that will certainly and definitely cause your issue)
The other thing I can think of is that the spindles were bent, like they came from a wrecked car. I'd doubt this is the case, but could be. I'd assume you know their source?
Last thing; did you happen to disconnect the swaybar end links and then not get 'em tightened up enough? They have to be nearly parallel to the ground (rather a smooth flat surface, preferably)
A couple of well lit pics of the underside of the front end help us I'd bet.
No, you misunderstood, I had questioned about the strut spacers because he said he had reused the struts and had not mentioned he acquired some spacers to mount them up, just wanted to clear that up before moving on to addressing his camber concerns.
So...3 main factors influencing camber here are vehicle ride height, spindle design (can't do much to alter what's baked in from factory here), and strut positioning.
So, going off him having stated that the springs were never dislodged from the control arm pocket while having the A-arm lowered to swap spindles and unless he really put the torque to those control arm bushings while unloaded... then I'd be looking closely at how the strut is positioned both top and bottom. How close does the strut body come to contacting the inside edge of the wheel/tire assembly? Any pics of it? With hood open, how is the strut positioned at the strut tower, towards the fender or towards the engine?
So assuming everything else is checking out, which would be a bit odd... solutions to get rid of positive camber? Aside from installing lowering springs in the front, which will bring some negative camber into the picture, or installing the tbird specific caster/camber plates...
The other options are too elongate one of the strut to spindle mounting holes on the strut ears to allow the spindle to be inclined inboard, thus decreasing the positive camber...
OR... slightly elongate the upper strut mount holes at the strut tower to allow the strut to incline inboard, bringing the spindle with it, thus decreasing the positive camber.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 04:09:56 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 04:09:56 PM
The strut upper mount used to be positioned all the way out to increase the positive camber, but i now have them pulled all the way in; it did not correct the problem nearly enough. If the MM caster/camber plates have more adjustability, that may be able to get rid of some more of the camber, but theres only so much you can adjust because the hole in the shock tower is only so big...
as far as grinding out the holes on the strut...i had considered that, but i didnt know if slotting them would risk the bolts sliding in the slotted holes, since the whole weight of the car, and all the bumps being soaked up are put directly onto those bolts; i worried if i hit a big bump it would jostle the bolts and they would move the camber
And yes, the control arms/sway bars are going to be dealt with; im going full QA1 up front when the funds are collected
as far as grinding out the holes on the strut...i had considered that, but i didnt know if slotting them would risk the bolts sliding in the slotted holes, since the whole weight of the car, and all the bumps being soaked up are put directly onto those bolts; i worried if i hit a big bump it would jostle the bolts and they would move the camber
And yes, the control arms/sway bars are going to be dealt with; im going full QA1 up front when the funds are collected
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Vintage on April 03, 2021, 04:22:30 PM
Post by: Vintage on April 03, 2021, 04:22:30 PM
Yeah, I'd do either the top or the bottom hole, depending on clearance between spindle pad and strut body. Maximum motorsports had a little squib on it somewhere on their webpage at one time.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 04:24:27 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 04:24:27 PM
So before you get all crazy, loosen the LCA bolts and drive it like Chuck suggested. It’s free and none of this makes any sense whatsoever. Something has raised the front suspension and you need to continue to do the free stuff before throwing money at it.
I’m going to say the LCA bushings are in bad shape they could have reset when you relaxed the suspension swapping the spindles. Again, this only takes a couple hours to do and costs nothing. I will say the bolts may be rusted to the bushing sleeves based on what the sway bar end links look like. Soak the nuts with something like PB Blaster overnight and focus on loosening them not the bolt head i.e. back the bolt head and put the working tool on the nut.
I’m going to say the LCA bushings are in bad shape they could have reset when you relaxed the suspension swapping the spindles. Again, this only takes a couple hours to do and costs nothing. I will say the bolts may be rusted to the bushing sleeves based on what the sway bar end links look like. Soak the nuts with something like PB Blaster overnight and focus on loosening them not the bolt head i.e. back the bolt head and put the working tool on the nut.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Most folks use a smaller diameter upper strut to spindle grade 8 bolt to get more negative camber. I’m talking about 0.125” smaller nothing crazy.
Did this on my 83 waaaaay back in the day before MM made their plates.
Did this on my 83 waaaaay back in the day before MM made their plates.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 07:58:50 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 03, 2021, 07:58:50 PM
Yes, im going to try loosening the bolts, see if that helps. I just went out and confirmed that the spring ends are indeed still clocked right in the spring pocket. Funny thing is, that even when i puysh down on the front end, and bring the ride height down about 2 inches, it does not change the camber angle at all...i can still clearly see the tire sticking out from the lip...making me think this isnt something to do with ride height/springs...
On that note about the MM plates...DO they offer MORE camber adjustability over the stock mounts?
On that note about the MM plates...DO they offer MORE camber adjustability over the stock mounts?
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2021, 08:41:09 PM
You will not see a camber change compressing the suspension with the car parked. The tire is friction locked to the pavement. Move the car and it will change but it requires a drive.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 04, 2021, 04:28:58 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 04, 2021, 04:28:58 PM
Ive solved the problem gentlemen...but im still concerned as to why its happening...there is so much toe-in that when i drive the car forward, it forces the positive camber, and the tension of the tires holds it there. When I reverse, the toe-out going backward forces in negative camber, and again holds it there because of the tires. So, theoretically, getting an alignment to fix the toe will solve the problem, but im still curious to know if this is normal, since I know cars tend to have some degree of toe in or toe out. Im guessing that the friction of the tires on the ground was either holding the ride height up, forcing the upper strut bushing over, bulging the tire sidewalls, or all 3 of those things.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
You need to check your rack and see if it has slip in it. Neither of my Foxes do what you are describing.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: bodyman on April 04, 2021, 08:22:39 PM
Post by: bodyman on April 04, 2021, 08:22:39 PM
Does the new spindle change the height of the tie rod mount? If I recall I think a bump steer kit and outer tie rods are needed.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
They are not needed when switching to the 87-93 style spindle for the 11” brakes.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Chuck W on April 04, 2021, 11:48:52 PM
Post by: Chuck W on April 04, 2021, 11:48:52 PM
Going to be a bear to drive to the alignment shop like that.
You should get it close(r) to neutral before trying to drive it. Tie rods might be a kind of a pain if they haven't been touched in a while.
You should get it close(r) to neutral before trying to drive it. Tie rods might be a kind of a pain if they haven't been touched in a while.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 05, 2021, 09:49:24 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 05, 2021, 09:49:24 PM
going to half ass align it with string method before going to the shop; either that or flatbed it...not going to wreck my new BFG's lol. Also have new tie rod ends for it on the way, no reason not to at this point.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2021, 10:39:05 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2021, 10:39:05 PM
Just to clarify, did you loosen the LCA bolts and reset the bushings with the suspension loaded? Would hate for you to spend the $$$ on the alignment and have it fall out later if they were preloaded. Not saying it would happen but again, it’s free.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Driverguy on April 11, 2021, 07:26:08 PM
Post by: Driverguy on April 11, 2021, 07:26:08 PM
Problem appears to be solved, gentlemen. I set the toe with a string and test drove it, it was fine; took it for a full alignment, its all good now. The camber DID have to be set all the way all the way in on the shock towers, though. Like I said before, apparently the toe being way the hell out, like it was when I finished the installation, was forcing the camber out when i drove it out of the garage, then pulling it back in when I backed it back in. No, there was no problem with the steering rack or tie rods, and my control arm bushings are not seized.
Title: Re: Help Please. 11 inch brake upgrade gone bad.
Post by: Chuck W on April 11, 2021, 11:03:10 PM
Post by: Chuck W on April 11, 2021, 11:03:10 PM
Well, I did mention that the Fox chassis wants to add positive camber to the outside wheel when turning. With it toed in that bad, I'm sure it added a lot of camber to it. It's going to scrub pretty badly going forward to backwards like that.
The bushings were a guess, but it didn't sound like you'd lowered the control arm enough for that to be an issue.
Glad it's sorted.
The bushings were a guess, but it didn't sound like you'd lowered the control arm enough for that to be an issue.
Glad it's sorted.