I'm working on my buddy's 83 T Bird. They totally raped him at the stealership and when they ran out of parts they could milk him for they called and told him the motor was no good because the rings were bad, allowing fuel to run down into the crankcase.
The first thing I did, after noticing that the injector pods were POURING fuel down the gullet while running was to do a compression test. I saw numbers you might expect to see on a very low mileage motor or even one that's been freshly rebuilt. All in the area of 155 psi. I think number 1 was a little lower as in about 151ish.
The problem was the fuel injectors, which of course they billed him to change and didn't do, so I swapped them out and it ran like a top but it had a rusted out freeze plug on the back of the right head. Given the lack of space between the head and the firewall the options were to either pull the head to change the freeze plug or pull the motor and change them all. I opted to pull the motor and replaced them all. It was a good call. It had sat in storage for 12 years and acspoogeulated an enormous amount of rust in the water jackets. I pulled all the freeze plugs, rinsed the hell out of it and squirted a full bottle of CLR into it which helped remove even more rust. I was actually surprised how well that worked.
So, after installing the freeze plugs, I put it back in, hooked everything up and, sure as shoot, it won't start. I can hear the fuel pump running but saw no fuel spraying while cranking. I tried a little either and no love there either. I assume I wasn't getting spark but I am getting spark off the coil wire so the crank sensor is functioning. I went back and double checked to make sure I didn't miss any connectors but they're all hooked up. I cycled the key several times to get fuel to the throttle body. Still no fuel.
I was wondering if anyone had a "no start" procedure they could pass onto me so I could go through, step by step, and make sure everything's right.
At this point I'm assuming an electrical connection, though hooked up, is bad or dirty or something like that but it's a little perplexing given that I'm getting spark yet it still won't kick even with a shot of starting fluid.
A procedure or any advise would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to head back out there and mess with it a little more tonight but I HAVE to pull it out of there tomorrow as I have another buddy's van I have to check out tomorrow. It's actually pretty urgent but I really wanted to finish the Bird up and, of course, avoid having to tow it out and push it back in when the van's done.
So, unfortunately, this is one of those "time is of the essence" kinda deals. Again, I'd really prefer to finish the Bird and avoid the hassle of pushing it out and back in. So if anyone can pass on some ideas right away, I'd REALLY appreciate it.
Thanks in advance,
Wayne
Update...
This strikes me as odd. I have good spark coming out of the coil wire but none to the plugs. Given that it has a crankshaft positioning sensor there is no pick up in the distributor. The distributor just distributes spark to the correct plugs. How can I be getting a "breaking spark" out of the coil and it not get to the plugs? It seems to me that if the crank sensor was bad I wouldn't be getting a broken spark signal from the coil. Does that seem right? The rotor is turning while the motor is cranking. The cap, rotor, plugs and wires are new. Again the stealership milked him for every nickel they could. I mean EVERYTHING. Hoses, belts all tune up components, fuel filter, fuel pump. They even called him after telling him he needed a new fuel pump and informed him his tank was too rusty and would have to be replaced as well. Maybe it was, I didn't see it. My point is that they changed EVERYTHING they could on this.
I have power at the red wire to the coil while the key is on. I also have power to all four wires that feed the fuel injectors just before the connector at the throttle body. I didn't think to probe the wires to the injectors.
Also I'd like to note something I hadn't noticed before. I am now hearing under the dash "the key is in the ignition" when it is and the door is opened. That system wasn't working before. I'm concerned that there's a security system in the mix here. I was working under the dash while the motor was out because the vacuum power brake booster was leaking internally. It was a bear getting the booster out with the engine out. I can only imagine trying to do it with it in. I'm wondering if the box that is retained by one of the four booster studs was not grounded and therefore not working before and by grounding it I've "activated" the security system. There's a light on the console that says alarm. I didn't notice it flashing before but do now. I think it only flashed while that voice message is playing, furthering my concern about the security system.
There are quite a number of spliced, butt connected and taped up wires under the hood of this thing. I was very careful when disconnection things to not yank anything apart. That's why I need to know what's supposed to be hot and when. I need to verify the electronic ignition is functioning correctly but I don't know which wires do what without a diagram and hopefully a procedure.
Thanks again,
Wayne
Do you have your engine ground strap connected? That would cause many of the issues you describe.
Basically you can't, has to be a defect in cap, rotor or coil wire(assumes spark isn't traveling down coil tower to ground)... Possibly if dist orientation is off enough, spark could be jumping to some other point inside dist...
I have seen old wires that had so much porosity the spark had leaked to ground before it got to the plugs(generally happens in damp weather), but I doubt new wires could have this issue...
Yes, actually there are three, kinda. There's one at the back of the motor, one at the front that ground from the motor to the body and then to the negative battery post. First thing I checked.
Yea, that's what I thought and looked it all over again today. The distributor is still right and has not been turned, I used a carb type motor lift plate to remove the motor so there were no chains or straps anywhere near the distributor to bump it. The cap isn't cracked, rotor looks good and again the wires, and everything else is new. Puzzling. But yea, logically it seems it would HAVE to be one of those components if I'm getting broken spark from the coil wire. My thought is that maybe the crank sensor is breaking it but at the wrong time but it seems like then it would probably jump to the wrong plug wire lug and at least backfire, which it isn't. Very odd. I had no choice but to drag it out today so I've got a few days to think about and discuss ideas with you guys. Keep em comin!
Thanks,
Wayne
Don't overthink this, spark travels to from coil wire to rotor, then jumps from rotor to the cylinder tower contact and on to spark plug...
How much spark is the coil producing??? If it isn't producing ¾" or more could be a weak spark issue... There should be a circuit from ign switch that feeds full battery voltage to module white wire while cranking...
Use your timing light to see if you are getting fire to all or any of the plug wires.
soft touch, ...good idea. I can't believe I didn't think of that.
turbocoupe50, not sure how much the coil is producing but it gave me quite a zap through the screwdriver. I was pretty sure I was holding only the wooden handle but must have touched the metal. When you say "to white wire of module" what module? Do you mean the crank sensor? Ignition box?
Thanks for the help guys,
Wayne
LOL ... Never use a wood handled tool to test spark, wood is porous it will absorb moisture which makes it conductive...
The timing light is a good idea, though I have no idea how sensitive they are to pulse... Still I'd think you'd need a fairly good spark to trigger it...
White wire I'm referring to is on ign module
(http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/04/dd/15/large/0900c1528004dd15.gif)
That diagram will be quite helpful. If this was a late 60s Mopar....actually, almost any year Mopar into the early 80s, I'd know what wire does everything and what color it is and exactly how many volts should be present and when. They sure didn't spare the spaghetti on these cars did they? To be honest I shouldn't have been intimidated by it all but I was. Every extra vacuum hose and messy wire made it a little more nerve wracking. I went through and eliminated all the smog system in effort to clean it up a little under the hood. The pump was froze up and the piping was all rotted out anyway. There was literally no reason for the components to remain expect for originality. That train left the station already. Nearly every wire on the motor had been broken or cut and repaired at some point, either with butt connectors or just with tape. I was very concerned this could cause an issue in the process of R & R but I managed to not yank any apart. Have the diagram will help verify things that are supposed to be powered up are and at the right time.
Thanks and any other thoughts, feel free.
Wayne
Back to the diagram, question, the orange wire off the ignition module says "to EEC III System" What is that the crank sensor?
eec iii
Eec iii
I don't think so, likely goes to ECM as there must be a method of controlling timing... I'm not familiar with the EEC-III so have very limited knowledge and info(I worked on one around 25 years ago), found above diagram on the net, maybe softouch can enhance the knowledge...
BTW on it's route to wherever, that orange wire probably changes color(at least if it connects to ECM)... On the only diagram I seem to have, a orange wire is engine ground, connects to pin 7 of ECM... My diagram shows sensors, inj, fuel pump, etc but nothing for ign system...
The EEC is the electronic engine control. The CP (crank position sensor) sends a pulse to the EEC. The EEC controls the spark with a pulse on the orange wire to the ignition module.
The white wire to the ignition module retards the spark while cranking.
Unfortunately, the 83 5.0L engine is the only one of the 83-88 Aero-birds that use the EEC III system, so it is a rare bird on this forum.
From what you say, the ignition module is firing the coil. So the EEC is getting the CP sensor pulse and sending the SPOUT (spark out ) pulse on the orange wire.
The distributor cannot be "turned" for timing, it is fixed in position. If you have not removed the distributor and put it back on the wrong gear tooth, or changed the timing chain and got the cam shaft out of time, it should be ok.
As was mentioned before, if you have a good spark coming into the distributor and it doesn't ever leave:
-You've got a spark that is too weak to jump from the rotor to the cap (just because it shocked you doesn't mean it's strong enough)
-The rotor isn't spinning (I think you said it was)
-The rotor or cap is incorrect or damaged
-Most of the V8s have a plastic collar that the cap sits on- is this seated all the way down? That could make it appear that the cap is all the way on, but the whole thing is lifted up off the rotor
Earlier you said the injectors weren't spraying- Did you get that figured out?
With #1 at TDC on the compression stroke, the slot the rotor plugs into on the shaft should line up with the "alignment ribs" in the distributor adaptor.
Interesting...I just got a call from my friend, the owner of the T-Bird, and he tells me he'd purchased a repair manual when he bought the car. This alone kind of surprised me because he's very NOT mechanical. But...he can read! LOL
Evidently there IS and anti theft system on the car from the factory. He says that it reads, "in order to disable the system you must either unlock one of the doors with the key or with the key pad. The cylinder's are frozen up and he doesn't know the code to the key pad. I'm REALLY hoping I can free up the lock cylinder.
Any ideas there or how to find out what the code is?
Thanks,
Wayne
The anti-theft is and optional feature. Just because the maintenance manual covers it doesn't mean you have it.
Looking at the 84 dospoogeentation that I have, the "start interrupt " part of the anti-theft feature prevents the picking of the starter relay. So you would not be able to crank the engine if the anti-theft is armed. If you open a door with the anti-theft armed it should set off the alarm.
The original (factory) keyless entry code may be on the Keyless entry module. It is in the trunk, underneath the rear window package tray.
Any feed back on your trouble shooting of the ignition problem?
Does your friend have the Ford EVTM ? Electrical & Vacuum Trouble-shooting Manual.
I'll second what softtouch said- The alarm only disables the starter. So if it's cranking, it's not the culprit.
That's how I thought they worked too. It just seemed odd that none of that system was working before I messed around under the dash and now it is and coincidently, it won't start now either.
The car's still outside for another day or so so I haven't messed with it at all.
If you have a factory Ford anti theft system in the car, the center console panel will have a ALARM light dead center between the power seat controls. If the Alarm is active (you must manually lock the door using the power door lock button inside the car before you slam it, the ALARM light will light up solid and then you have a few seconds to close the door. If activated, the horn honks and lights flash. There is a cut off for the ignition too. Its a passive system, with no motion sensor. Its a rare option, and i don't think its your culprit in this case.
Good news! It lives!
It turns out that the coil wire was not seating all the way down into the coil and there's some corrosion down in the coil. I think the dealership pieced together a wire set and the coil wire they used has a boot that's a bit too small and the connector may be too short.
The weather was decent so before it got dark I went out, the car was sitting outside, put the timing light on the coil wire and found now light. I went back through and checked every wire, every plug, every connection, every ground yet one more time. Nothing. So I got mad and yanked the coil wire out of the coil and jammed it back in as hard as I good and hopped into the car. I decided to try it one last time and run the window up if it didn't start. It fired right up!
Now onto the next issue, leaking heater core....oh brother! I searched the forum and found some info and got started. Nearly 5 hours in and I'm a long way from even getting the old one out. Somebody do me a favor, remind me to never do another heater core on an 83 Bird again! LOL
Thanks so much for the help.
And by the way, if anyone has any shortcut ideas I'm all ears. I've got the dash a few screws shy of being loose, the console out, hoses off, evap lines off, kick pannels and trim off and the nuts off on the engine bay side of the heater box. It looks like another couple of hours minimum before I'll have the bad core out.
Wayne